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Thread: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

  1. #1

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    Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    I have some questions pertaining to the workflow of using a drum scanner. Does the PMT unit slowly work it's way across the drum from one end to the other as the drum is spinning, is that how it works?

    About how long does a howtek 4000/4500 take to scan a single 4x5 negative? I read the manual for the 4500 and it appears as though if one were to butt the negative up to the top right corner it speeds it up. Does it scan faster at a lower dpi or does it only scan at one speed and the "skill" people talk about is getting a good scan on the first try?

    For those that use Silverfast with a Howtek, what are your thoughts? Is it adequate for you? And how do these older scanners fare for colour negatives? I believe they're 12 bit colour. Is that enough to remove the orange mask and still have image information left?

    I saw that the aperture could be adjusted both from the control panel and software. This is what you adjust to match up with the film grain, isn't it? The unit is rated for 4000 lpi but could the aperture set also affect the overall sharpness of the image?

    Finally, about how strong does the table have to be? Does anybody have any pictures of their howtek sitting on a table?

    Lots of questions! lol

  2. #2
    Jeff Deaton
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    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    Trying to optimize for scanning time on the 4500 is kindof like splitting hairs in my opinion. I haven't scanned 4x5 in a while (i mostly scan 8x10), but if you scan at 4000dpi i seem to remember that it would take about 1.5hrs worst case.

    I've never tried to mount the 4x5 in the top right of the scanning area. In general practice it just doesn't work out like that. Probably 10 times out of 10, if I'm going to go to the trouble of mounting up film to scan, then I'm going to mount four 4x5 sheets on the drum at once. When i only had one sheet that i wanted to scan i would frequently add another scrap sheet of film or a color calibration target to even out the mylar (read: it helps with bubbles...damn bubbles...hahaha). So in practice scanning a single sheet of 4x5 would probably be a rare event.

    I think 4000dpi on a 4x5 might be useful for archive type purposes or for big enlargements. Its mostly a pain to deal with those large files, but if you want to print at 10x without any extrapolation then thats the only way to go. Ive printed several 4x5's that large and all turned out way better than I had hoped. All were printed on a lightjet. My philosophy is that if the shot is good enough to bother with drum scanning then I might as well make the best scan possible (aka high dpi). For my 8x10 slides I don't scan that high - 2000dpi is the limit I stick to. That gives more than enough resolution. One gotcha with silverfast that is not present with aztek's dpl is the maximum file size. Thats limited to 2gb on silverfast, but I've not checked with the latest version to see if they've addressed that.

    My 4500 performs pretty good with silverfast, but the best combo is DPL on a windows workstation, which i hope to acquire in the near future. Ive been running silverfast for a while now and it works just fine. My only complaint beyond some quirky stuff on the mac gui is the color calibration capabilities. So what I've done is get a hutchcolor target and then used The pictocolor pshop plugin to create an icc profile. That target has helped me with saturated slides (velvia, etc). Those using dpl can comment on its goodness directly, but thats my next step.

    I've mostly only scanned slides and not color negs. BW scans great too. It is a 12bit scanner, but you tell silverfast to scan at the "48bit" setting. I've scanned color negs before, but i will admit it was a half-hearted attempt so i dont have any real experience to offer.

    I have tinkered with the aperture setting manually at times, but to be honest I've stopped doing that as whatever advatages i was getting (or thought i was getting) just didnt really make a lot of difference from the auto setting. For high dpi scans i think you're probably going to be a the smallest aperture setting anyway. If you set the aperture to a larger value than what might be required for the resoluton one is scanning at, then it can soften the image.

    The scanner weighs a lot. Probably a 100lbs. So my solution was to just leave it on the floor next to my work area. You will need two people to help you lift it onto a table - the thing is just akward to get a hold of by youself. The table would need to be really sturdy.

    Sorry about typos, I'm on an iPad.

    -Jeff
    Jeff Deaton

  3. #3

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    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    so four sheets of 4x5 at 4000 dpi is about 1.5 hours scan time, plus mounting & clean-up?

    The 1.5gb limit might be due to a 32 bit os. I managed to get my adaptec 2906 card working with 64 bit windows so I wonder if silverfast & the howtek will work with 64 bit windows so long as the scsi card is working?

    I might take a "baby step" and acquire an older Coolscan 8000 and see what the increased dpi brings to the table compared to my V700. I've printed some crops (8x10 crops from 20x24 prints) from 4x5 scanned with my V700 then compared them to enlargements in the darkroom. The printer was more at fault than the scanner with the 4x5 so I think I'd hit that roadblock before seeing a benefit from increased scan dpi. The higher dpi would be great for smaller formats though which I do shoot, along side 4x5.

    It seems as though I have to prepare for the future because I came into the analog process first; film stocks are being discontinued and the availability of chemicals have changed in only the last 10 months (I'm in Canada). Thankfully the analog process didn't cost much so I'll continue using it until I can't.

    (yes, film will be around for a while but the selection of contrast/saturation for colour neg is already dwindling and the digital workflow is kind of a "way around" that problem)

  4. #4
    Jeff Deaton
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    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    so four sheets of 4x5 at 4000 dpi is about 1.5 hours scan time, plus mounting & clean-up?
    No. That's 1+ hrs per sheet.
    Jeff Deaton

  5. #5

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    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanEsopenko View Post
    I have some questions pertaining to the workflow of using a drum scanner. Does the PMT unit slowly work it's way across the drum from one end to the other as the drum is spinning, is that how it works?
    Sean, actually the sensor stays put. The whole bed with the drum and all moves over. I always thought it was strange that it was designed this way but it is...

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanEsopenko View Post
    About how long does a howtek 4000/4500 take to scan a single 4x5 negative? I read the manual for the 4500 and it appears as though if one were to butt the negative up to the top right corner it speeds it up. Does it scan faster at a lower dpi or does it only scan at one speed and the "skill" people talk about is getting a good scan on the first try?
    It takes about 45 minutes. I think positioning is probably not a big factor in speed. The dpi is, however, as it scans slower as the dpi goes up. The skill has nothing to do with speed, or getting it on the first try... The skill is all about knowing what is possible for a particular piece of film (in terms of the print), knowing what the photographer is attempting to do and making sure that the scan can get them there.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanEsopenko View Post
    For those that use Silverfast with a Howtek, what are your thoughts? Is it adequate for you? And how do these older scanners fare for colour negatives? I believe they're 12 bit colour. Is that enough to remove the orange mask and still have image information left?
    I know some folks like the Silverfast, but if you ask DPL users, they generally scoff. DPL is a pro-level tool, with pro level features and great control. It's also capable of making the adjustments essentially pre-scan vs post-scan which can help a lot in a few situations.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanEsopenko View Post
    I saw that the aperture could be adjusted both from the control panel and software. This is what you adjust to match up with the film grain, isn't it? The unit is rated for 4000 lpi but could the aperture set also affect the overall sharpness of the image?
    Yes, it is. Choosing an aperture is essential to success. Too much and its blurry, too little and its ant-aliased (looks grainy). It is critical when dealing with color neg. Most of them are best at about 19 microns, altho' the newest Ektar can go to 16 or 13 with some care. Some scanners can't adjust like this and its a disadvantage with that type of film.

    I see it as the same as b&w zone system. The easiest way to imagine it is to suggest that exposure and development have nothing to do with each other. (They do, but usually only minimally, not enough to affect things.) By the same token, if you split the aperture and the dpi you will be much better off. The aperture is for matching to the grain and getting things as sharp as possible and the dpi is for how large you want to print.

    I like the 4000 for the 4x5's. Gives me all I need in color or b&w. It's 20,000 pixels, you can even crop a bit if you do such things... If you have trouble with files sizes, just get some more ram in your computer... its cheap.

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanEsopenko View Post
    Finally, about how strong does the table have to be? Does anybody have any pictures of their howtek sitting on a table?
    Any good wood table should do, you don't need a battleship...

    Hope this helps.
    Call me if you want... 707-763-5922 PST time zone.

    Lenny
    EigerStudios
    Museum Quality Drum Scanning and Printing

  6. #6

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    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    Thanks for the info. I've got a lot to mull over for the next while.

  7. #7

    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny Eiger View Post
    ...
    snip...
    I know some folks like the Silverfast, but if you ask DPL users, they generally scoff. DPL is a pro-level tool, with pro level features and great control.
    ...
    snip
    ...
    Lenny
    Since I'm becoming a codger no one need pay any attention to me anyway, I become more free to speak my mind with every passing year. I'm not going to let, uh..."stuff"... like this go without comment. In my opinion, this says more about DPL users than it does about software recommendations or serious technical advice.

    The following work was produced using a Howtek 4500 and Silverfast. Never has there been a "scoff" in response to any of this work, usually open mouthed amazement. In addition, it has never been considered anything but "pro-level" work, at the minimum.

    http://www.custom-digital.com/2008/07/michael-burns/
    http://www.custom-digital.com/2008/08/charles-peterson/
    http://www.custom-digital.com/2008/08/fran-ho/
    http://www.custom-digital.com/2008/08/stuart-clugston/
    http://www.custom-digital.com/2011/0...ramas-at-core/
    http://www.custom-digital.com/2009/0...od-exhibition/
    http://www.custom-digital.com/2008/09/t-ellen-sollod/

    in addition, all of my own work is produced from scans from 5x7 or 120 B&W film-

    http://tylerboley.com/FineArtPhotogr...es/thumbs.html

    Perhaps opinions from people like Jon Cone, who recently asked me how my prints were so impossibly sharp, might be solicited. We then proceeded to work out Silverfast use on his Heidlberg.

    Good luck with your choices.
    Tyler

  8. #8

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    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Boley View Post
    Since I'm becoming a codger no one need pay any attention to me anyway, I become more free to speak my mind with every passing year. I'm not going to let, uh..."stuff"... like this go without comment. In my opinion, this says more about DPL users than it does about software recommendations or serious technical advice.
    Tyler
    Everyone that I have spoken to that uses DPL does appreciate its additional features. Some even scoff.... However, you're over-reacting. Just because DPL users have an opinion does not mean all the other solutions are garbage, or not useful or whatever. What I have found is that almost everyone is very committed to their solution. Some folks love their Trident. DPL is full featured, but it doesn't mean the others are no good. I never thought so. There is no intention to send out "stuff."

    And Cone thought my prints were amazing as well.... I don't think we all need to print out all our testimonials here... to prove a point. We all appreciate your professionalism
    and your opinions here. It's a given...

    Lenny
    EigerStudios
    Museum Quality Drum Scanning and Printing

  9. #9

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    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Boley View Post
    Perhaps opinions from people like Jon Cone, who recently asked me how my prints were so impossibly sharp, might be solicited. We then proceeded to work out Silverfast use on his Heidlberg.

    Good luck with your choices.
    Tyler
    And for the bystanders . . . So, how ARE your prints so impossibly sharp? We are left hanging with your implication that you've found something that Silverfast can do to give "impossibly sharp" scans/prints. Could you clue us in? I know that Silverfast users will be grateful, and Vuescan users would like to see if they can glean from your knowledge. Thanks!

  10. #10

    Re: Questions about Howtek & drum scanning in general

    my post was characterized incorrectly... I've never ever touted what I do here on this list, I'm never one of the one's that jumps into any thread asking about services to try to get work, ever, and never have directed anyone to my work from here. I have included links to technical writings relevant to specific threads at times. This time I was making a point about Silverfast. Period.
    I do not get "impossibly sharp" prints from any special feature in any piece of software, including Silverfast. Fully worked through work habits are the key in anything, all the tools and how to use them apply. Maybe in one way with one image, another way with another. Regarding sharpness... the only thing the scanner software has to do with it is accurate focus, wisely selected ppi, and aperture settings. After that, it's non-destructive editing, and very very careful sharpening techniques.
    Regarding Jon's comments, he is certainly an outstanding image editor and printmaker and knows out to deal with sharpness. His comment about that in particular was a spontaneous generous reaction to sitting through a lot of my work, and as we talked it had a lot to do with seeing a lot of work at once from well scanned large format film- 5x7 and even old 10x12. Jon has been doing a lot of very cool stuff with a lens baby, so the contrast is striking in that regard, two very different looks. It was a generous remark, certainly though, it's not "impossibly" sharp...
    Again... all this was just to illustrate Silverfast is a tool that can be mastered, with no compromises whatsoever, as the work I linked to easily shows.
    Tyler

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