Looking at buying a new Ebony folding 5x4 (lucky me) and was in two minds if it's worth paying the extra for the U version with asymmetrical tilts & swings? As I have never used them.
Looking at buying a new Ebony folding 5x4 (lucky me) and was in two minds if it's worth paying the extra for the U version with asymmetrical tilts & swings? As I have never used them.
http://www.architecturalphotos.net
Having an SV45Te myself and having tried out a friends 45SU, I would say no, it is not worth it. You already have symmetric tilt due to the axis tilt on the lensboard. This means that you can choose something on the plane of focus in the middle of the screen and then simply tilt to get everything else in as well.Originally Posted by Rudgey
The only difference with asymmetric tilts is that the line of constant focus is about 1/3 up the screen; what is more, you cannot use this if you want to keep the back vertical for architectural stuff.
I have owned 4 Ebony cameras: first the SV45U, then 45SU, RSW45 and finally the 45S. I actually sold the 45SU for the 45S because I did not see any advantage to the asymmetrical tilts--others will have different opinions I am sure. Pretty much what Joanna so elegantly stated above rings true to my findings.
I don't have an ebony, but i do have an 8x10 with asymmetrical swing. I find it much faster to focus and would not want another camera without it.
I learned on bare-bones field cameras with base tilts and later on a monorail with axis tilts. I did spend some time figuring out and mastering base tilts. After that, it took me about two seconds to master axis tilts, since they function exactly like the axis swings on any camera.
However, I don't feel that either is better; nor is one really faster than the other. Although base tilts sometimes require more iterations, you can use the top and bottom of the ground glass to focus, i.e., more spread, than you can with base tilts, which makes them inherently more accurate. With axis tilts, I often spend a lot of time fine tuning the focus by checking the opposite edges anyway, just because I only have half the focus spread if I use the axis and one edge, so things even out.
Now, to your question: asymmetrical tilts and swings are basically axis tilts and swings, only with the axes shifted to either side of center. This gives you more focus spread and makes it a bit closer to base tilts in terms of accuracy, but you'll still find yourself checking opposite edges anyway. The stated advantage of asymmetrical tilts and swings is that you can focus one axis on the foreground area of sharp focus and then swing/tilt to get the more distant area in focus at the other end. This sounds really great, but if there is a lot of extra fiddling one has to do to get the camera to swing or tilt around a particular axis then you spend time doing that instead of focusing. And, this system works best for plane subjects, e.g., walls, flat floors, etc. With more complex subjects you still have to spend a lot of time determining focus points and dof and checking focus spread, etc. which asymmetrical tilts won't help you with.
Bottom line, you should try one out to see if it would be an advantage for you or not before shelling out more. I'd be willing to wager that I could deal with a subject as quickly and accurately with base tilts as with asymmetrical tilts. The information brochure from Ebony about the asymmetrical movements is a bit misleading. Their illustrations showing sharper results with asymmetrical swings and tilts is just advertising hype. If you get the film plane and lens plane in the same position, you'll get the same sharpness and depth of field, no matter what system of movements the camera has.
The main issue is user comfort. You'll need to decide that for yourself. I tend to think that the few hours I spent mastering base tilts has made the largest contribution to my "user comfort" in using camera movements.
Best,
Doremus
I'll add a couple of questions to the one you ask to make a couple more things clear.
1) Is it necessary?
No, nearly all cameras allow you to focus with a huge range of movements. Most rear movements can be moved to the front if you know what you are doing etc..
2) Is it useful?
Oh yes! In order of ease of use I would rate the types of movements as follows - getting easier as you go down the list
a) Front base tilt - absolute pig and avoid if possible
b) Rear base tilt - useable but having the axis of constant focs out of the ground glass area is awkward
c) Front axis tilt - as useable as the above really but needing a different set of skills. You still need to 'iterate' toward correct focus
d) Rear axis tilt - very easy to use. Focus on something in the middle that you want in focus and then tilt until the ends of the plance you want come in
e) Rear assymetric tilt - ridiculously easy. Focus on one end of the ground glass. tilt until the other end comes in.
The different between the last two can be summarised by thinking about you plane of focus. Normally you want your plane to go from a point, to another point. Axis tilt asks you to focus on a work out a point in the middle of these. Also it's worth bearing in mind that the most accurate placement of focus needs to be at the point in the foreground because that is where the depth of field is smallest. With assymetric tilt your last job is to tilt the ground glass to get this most important part in the right place.
3) Is it worth it? Well - that's up to you to decide. I would pay a premium for it. For me that premium might be £500 to £8000 depending on how much spare cash I had
Still Developing at http://www.timparkin.co.uk and scanning at http://cheapdrumscanning.com
I think you may have hit on the crux of the matter, in that any kind of axis tilt will apear revolutionary when someone has only ever learned base tilts.
Certainly, in my experience, there are only restricted circumstances in which asymmetric tilts can actually be an advantage.
This shot had to take into account that the river bed was some 20+ feet below the quayside on which I was standing and the prow of the boat was about 15 feet in front of me. This meant that I needed a minute amount of tilt, with the plane of focus coming out of the river bed roughly halfway through the bit of mud that was visible to the right of the prow and disappearing at around 45° into the distance. There really wasn't anything that I could have placed on an any predetermined mark on a GG screen.
Totally agreed. Do not spend inordinate amounts of money on, what is essentially, a sales gimmick without getting your hands on a camera and seeing if it really does come up to the hype.
As you say Doremus, asymmetrical tilts and swings are basically axis tilts and swings, only with the axes shifted to either side of center, but nobody has yet used axis tilts as a marketing gimmick. Or is it just that asymmetric tilts are seen as "sexy"?
Hi Joanna,
The technique you talk about with front tilt doesn't work. If you find something on the centre line and then tilt the front axis, the point on the centreline goes out of focus. The following diagram shows this..
The rear assymetric tilt on the Ebony is also not at 1/3 up the screen it's actually at either 1/5th of 1/10th depending on whether you are in portrait or landscape mode. Effectively it's as close to the edge of the screen as you would want it for typical compositions.
Tim
Still Developing at http://www.timparkin.co.uk and scanning at http://cheapdrumscanning.com
Well in this situation you would just focus on infinity and then tilt the back to get the foreground in focus. The far distance has huge amounts of depth of field and so any slight inaccuracy in placing the line is irrelevant. In practise this has been true for 90+% of the pictures I have taken.I think you may have hit on the crux of the matter, in that any kind of axis tilt will apear revolutionary when someone has only ever learned base tilts.
Certainly, in my experience, there are only restricted circumstances in which asymmetric tilts can actually be an advantage.
This shot had to take into account that the river bed was some 20+ feet below the quayside on which I was standing and the prow of the boat was about 15 feet in front of me. This meant that I needed a minute amount of tilt, with the plane of focus coming out of the river bed roughly halfway through the bit of mud that was visible to the right of the prow and disappearing at around 45° into the distance. There really wasn't anything that I could have placed on an any predetermined mark on a GG screen.
It's only a sales gimmick if you don't want it or can't see the use of it - if you can see the use of it, it saves you time and/or makes your life easier, it's a useful feature.
And cars are just motorbikes with some extra wheels... bloody marketing gimmicks..
Still Developing at http://www.timparkin.co.uk and scanning at http://cheapdrumscanning.com
Yes. agreed. I don't think they wanted to imply this though - a mistake rather than actively trying to mislead people.
At this point in my progression with large format I can put on the right amount of tilt without even looking at the ground glass (just by looking at the side of the camera and positioning the hinge line) :-)
However, for someone who doesn't get to spend a lot of time with the camera, the assymetric tilt can be an advantage.
But, yes, I think you can achieve a speed with any tilt method that is sufficient. However, as my speed with front axis tilt and other forms of tilt has got better, so has my ability to apply rear assymetric tilt. At this point in time if I'm trying to get the camera set up very, very quickly, then the ability to pop the camera out of the bag with a lens attached, position, focus on infininty, tilt the back to position and shoot at f/32 with a quick mental exposure calculation means my time to get the shot is limited more by my ability to get the camera out of the bag than my ability to focus and add movements.
Agreed! And one more point - I wouldn't pay the new price for an Ebony now - the exchange rate has made them ridiculously overpriced. You should be able to pick up an Ebony 45SU for about £2000 to £2500 and at that price I would say they are a bargain. My only bugbear with the Ebony series is the way they lock up if you are working on the rain for long periods. You can get away with a day of working in the rain but if you have to work the second day and haven't had chance to dry out the wood fully, your camera won't be functional. Because of this I also take a Chamonix 45N-1 with me and if I want to go light, this is the camera I use as well.
Tim
Still Developing at http://www.timparkin.co.uk and scanning at http://cheapdrumscanning.com
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