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Thread: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

  1. #21
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    Figures. "Icon LA" is a commercial digital service. So what do they call it if a printer is used containing dyes rather than inks, or when a laser device is used to expose a chromolytic medium rather than chromogenic (which
    has certainly been done, though not for much longer)? A while you're at it,
    explain Giclee, which as far as I can recongize, represent a tablecloth ready for the laundry. My guess is that most folks walking into a gallery just look at subject matter.

  2. #22

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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    A while you're at it,
    explain Giclee, which as far as I can recongize, represent a tablecloth ready for the laundry. My guess is that most folks walking into a gallery just look at subject matter.
    Giclee is just as good as inkjet IMHO.

    And yes, most people who walk into galleries, and gallery owners as well, are primarily interested in subject matter, and the location of the wine and cheese reception. All the more reason for the artist to resolve the issue of permanence to his/her satisfaction.

    Sandy
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
    [url]https://groups.io/g/carbon

  3. #23
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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    It occurs to me that many of my commercially-made R and C prints from days of yore are turning magenta. Maybe turning green is some sort of cosmic balancing mechanism.

    I wouldn't want to use the word "dye"--that sounds too much like dye transfer, which really is an archival process (to the extent anything is, I guess), or dye sublimation, which is just the opposite. I have no problem with "pigment print on paper". But I think "giclee" just sounds contrived and pretentious.

    Rick "whose Cibachromes hanging out in the open look like they did when they were made" Denney

  4. #24

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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    Quote Originally Posted by rdenney View Post
    I wouldn't want to use the word "dye"--that sounds too much like dye transfer, which really is an archival process (to the extent anything is, I guess), or dye sublimation, which is just the opposite. I have no problem with "pigment print on paper". But I think "giclee" just sounds contrived and pretentious.
    Well, C and R prints were dye based, simple fact. And dye transfer prints, while they offered a lot of color control, were not archival if exposed to light. Today's pigment inkjet color prints are probably more archival than dye transfer prints.

    Giclee is indeed a contrived term. Piezography and Eboni are also contrived terms.

    "The word "giclée" was created by Jack Duganne, a print maker working at Nash Editions. He wanted a name for the new type of prints they were producing on the IRIS printer, a large format high resolution industrial prepress proofing ink-jet printer they had adapted for fine art printing. He was specifically looking for a word that would not have the negative connotations of "ink-jet" or "computer generated". To make the word descriptive of ink-jet technologies he based it on the French language word "le gicleur" meaning "nozzle", or more specifically "gicler" meaning "to squirt, spurt, or spray"."

    Interestingly, the term Inkjet today appears to have fewer negative connotations for most people than Giclée.

    Sandy
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
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  5. #25

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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    I agree with Sandy that "giclee" sounds contrived (and pretentious) though it made more sense to use such a term back when it was created than it does today. But it doesn't strike me as any more pretentious than calling a print made on plain old photo paper a gelatin silver print.
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  6. #26

    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    Well, first off, the Ilford Paper wasn't really an archival paper. As well, the RC was designed more for dye based inks as it encapsulates the inks. The pigment inks from the Epson could have been impacted by that. I've got Epson prints that have been in brightly lit rooms for nearly a decade with no perceptible loss of density nor color shifts.

  7. #27

    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dakotah Jackson View Post
    How about 'original pixelograph'?
    Ranks right up there with "Grainography Print"

  8. #28

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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    When I was around that stuff back in the Nash days the word was that "Giclée" was slang for certain physical response, as in, "I Gicléed on her face".

    I prefer "inkjet" myself.

  9. #29
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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ellis View Post
    I agree with Sandy that "giclee" sounds contrived (and pretentious) though it made more sense to use such a term back when it was created than it does today. But it doesn't strike me as any more pretentious than calling a print made on plain old photo paper a gelatin silver print.
    Oh, yeah. In both cases, the terms are trying to confuse the unknowing into thinking the print is something it isn't. Probably those original Iris prints could have been called "Iris print on paper" and nobody would have known or cared what an Iris was. But there would be no obfuscation. Trying to to make it sound better than it is is what makes it pretentious. That said, at least "silver geletin print" is at least plainly factually descriptive in ways not easy to achieve otherwise.

    That doesn't mean we must call it "inkjet print", which is certainly too general a term for what we do--like "laser print".

    Of course, some would want us to name them "spawn of Satan print". But if I'm no fan of describing them pretentiously, then I'm certainly no fan of describing them in a way that carries out some opposite hidden agenda.

    My wife has at times collected graphic arts. They are just as bad.

    Typical descriptions for paintings that I've seen in museums and galleries are: Oil on canvas. Oil on masonite. Acrylic on canvas. Acrylic and ground-up kitchen utensils on rice paper. Assorted car parts on annealed bronze. In that pantheon, "Pigment print on paper" or "ink print on paper" doesn't seem too diversionary.

    Rick "who rebels against people defining away their adversaries" Denney

  10. #30
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: Old Pigment Epsons Fading to Green?

    A lot of such labels are simply a way of dumbing down otherwise complex permanence issues for the sake of marketing. Dye transfer prints for example depend not only on the specific dyes involved, but
    very much on the storage or display conditions. The thinking seems to
    be, that since these are so expensive to make, one would take good
    care of them and periodically lift them to the portfolio box to view them, though in the heyday of the process they were used for commercial dispaly too and didn't fare so well. Cibachrome is quite
    permanent in the dark and holds up well in indirect light, but doesn't do
    so well in direct sunlight or other harsh UV sources. Iris prints were for
    proofing, orginally used vegetable dyes, and weren't intended for permanence. Once they got artsy the term giclee started getting tossed around. Now a lot of engineering has gone into both inkjet and
    C-prints to significantly improve permanence, though I don't think any
    of these approaches could equal certain carbon printing options, but
    that too would be dependent on the specifics. Plenty of pigments sold
    at the art store are relatively fugitive or contain preservatives that
    affect the long-term integrity of the sandwich. Sandy would know more
    about this than I do, but it just once again illustrates that permanence
    is a lot more involved than just pigeonholing the character of a print
    with a marketing label.

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