Possible new film

[Leigh]

... there are still shops out there producing brand new vacuum tubes. From an engineering standpoint, there is absolutely no reason to use them...

Absolutely untrue... There are many applications that can only be handled by tubes, not by semiconductors.

...and substantially off-topic.

- Leigh

[Ben Syverson]

Absolutely untrue... There are many applications that can only be handled by tubes, not by semiconductors.

...and substantially off-topic.

- Leigh

Why? There are plenty of applications that can only be handled by film, not by digital sensors.

[Leigh]

Ben,

I was responding to your statement that there was no engineering reason to use vacuum tubes.

Stop changing the subject, and admit that you were wrong.

- Leigh

[Brian C. Miller]

According to what I've been reading on APUG, what can realistically be produced without Kodak's or Fuji's level of R&D would be an old to recent style emulsion, i.e., 1920's to at best 1960's. We would not be seeing a truly modern formulation, like TMax or Delta, from this.

The main process barrier to a new company making an emulsion is the base material. Four rolls minimum, each over a mile long, and the equipment to coat and cut it. So, it makes far more sense to work out an emulsion, and then have it made by someone else. That someone could be in the US, like at one of the xray film companies, or it could be made in Eastern Europe. Isn't Efke making the new Lodima paper?

Anyways, a new film emulsion isn't impossible, especially when it's piggy-backed onto someone else's production line.

[Ben Syverson]

Ben,

I was responding to your statement that there was no engineering reason to use vacuum tubes.

Stop changing the subject, and admit that you were wrong.

- Leigh

Oh for Christ's sake. I was trying to be concise, but if we're being pedantic, then how about this:
"There is absolutely no reason to use them in modern applications unless you're engineering particle accelerators, nuke-proof radios or other household items."

[Jay DeFehr]

Brian,

I think you're assuming a lot. If Kodak suddenly stopped buying the mile + long rolls of base material, the mfg of the base material might suddenly become more flexible about its minimum order requirements. Once a mfg is making an emulsion, wherever it falls on the technological spectrum, it could evolve into something like a modern emulsion. In other words, I don't think the barrier is as much technological as it is economic. The price, availability and quality of product will be determined by the market, and not by any technological limitations. I think I'm echoing Ben and others who say, "If I'm willing to pay, someone will make it", which I interpret to mean, if there's a market, there will be a product. I think that's true, as far as it goes. At some point "the market" simply becomes too small to support a product, and at that point, the people who are still willing to pay a premium won't have the option. What we're all trying to predict is how far the demand for film will fall, and I don't think any of us can reliably make that prediction. Currently demand for film is in free fall towards zero, but that could change at any time for reasons none of us anticipate, or not. We just don't, and can't know. What we can be more sure of, is that if demand decreases sufficiently, mfg ceases. When a man jumps out of an airplane, the potential outcomes for the man fall within a fairly narrow range--- either his parachute will open (assuming he has one), or it won't. If the man has no parachute, or his doesn't open, his survival will depend on an infinite number of highly improbable interventions. Those can be fun to think about, but not much fun to rely on.

[Drew Wiley]

Emulsions aren't just formulas. There's an art to it as well, and getting it right per people is probably just as much a factor in startup expense as chemical ingredients.
I have some custom products from Efke, and while quite usable, certainly aren't dust
or blesmish free to the extent desirable. There are alternatives in Germany with better
quality control. Even making an old-school classic film like Super-XX involved a continuity of tradition - and one cannot simply hand somone a formula and get that
kind of thing. Ones all the little elves retire, their secrets often go with them.

[Drew Wiley]

Jay - per film base it's all about economies of scale and setup expense. True industrial
quantities are probably the only way these roll goods can be made in the fashion
modern films need. And the petrochemicals behind them also have to be very carefully
purchased in order to prevent wild price fluctuations. If part of this equation collapses,
we might be left with only those films and formats which can be successfully coated on the most common base stocks, or else with frustrating inferior products. But in another sense, this is just survival of the fittest, and if certain film options disappear,
then the surviving ones will enjoy greater sales.

[Leigh]

Oh for Christ's sake. I was trying to be concise, but if we're being pedantic, then how about this:

Ben,

Why don't you just drop this line since you obviously have no idea what you're talking about?

- Leigh

[Greg Blank]

Exactly, despite peoples perceptions of how great Forte was it was full of quirks, like when I tested Efke a few years ago I found it to be a further step down from Forte and a long long way from Ilford and Kodak products in terms of QC. Making emulsions is akin to making Cookies, its a batter of sorts and like any perishable chemical mixture subject to many day to day variances.

Emulsions aren't just formulas. There's an art to it as well, and getting it right per people is probably just as much a factor in startup expense as chemical ingredients.
I have some custom products from Efke, and while quite usable, certainly aren't dust
or blesmish free to the extent desirable. There are alternatives in Germany with better
quality control. Even making an old-school classic film like Super-XX involved a continuity of tradition - and one cannot simply hand somone a formula and get that
kind of thing. Ones all the little elves retire, their secrets often go with them.