Arca Swiss 4x5; 171, 141 and 6x9 weight, size and movements questions

[l2oBiN]

I have some questions regarding the arca system which I hope the collective knowledge of this great found community could answer.

Here they are in no particular order:

Where can I find the latest arca Swiss catalog?


The arca Swiss 2x 4x5 (171?) classic (cat# 012000) weights 3.4 kg. if one is to replace 2x15cm telescoping rail with a 2x 15cm collapsible rail one would save 200g as the f classic C (cat # 012001) weights 3.2kg?

What is the weight and dimentional difference between the new 141 and old 171 type frames?

Why is the weight and dimention of the 6x9 (110?) type frame? Has this frame also been updated?

What is the difference in movements (in particular rise) between the 171, 141 4x5 and 6x9 type frames?

Can the 069000 be used with the 6x9 frame to gain additional rise when needed?

Is there a linhof/technica type adapter for the 6x9 type frame?

Have the bellows (both wise and standard) been changed between the new 141 and old 171 4x5 frames?

How much weight and dimensional difference is there between the 2x 4x5 type bellows and the 4x5 to 6x9 type configuration?

Have the focus frame carriers changed between the 141 and 171 systems?

Can the collapsible rail slot directly into an arca clamp without a base?

[B.S.Kumar]

Marko, you can get the catalog here: http://www.rodklukas.com/resources/arca.pdf

Cheers,
Kumar

[evan clarke]

Hi,
I have 5 Arcas, my 2 4x5s are a 171 and a 141, both f metrics with orbix. My 171 has the leather combination bellows and I didn't think anything could ever surpass it until I got my 141 with the standard bellows. I can draw everything from 58mm to 500 tele without a change in bellows. I have adapter boards which allow me to use Technika mounted lenses and 110mm Arca mounted lenses. I have a couple of the folding rails but FAR prefer the split optical bench. The camera is more compact when stowed in the bag and the rail setup is much stiffer than the folding one..You can't go wrong with this camera..Evan Clarke

[Frank Petronio]

Note that the PDF linked above is years out of date, showing items no longer available and not showing the latest versions.

[r.e.]

Note that the PDF linked above is years out of date, showing items no longer available and not showing the latest versions.

If you look at Rod Klukas's site, he has additional product notes and updates that I think pretty much cover everything.

When I asked him at the New York show whether Arca-Swiss intends to finally set up a web site, he said that his site would be it. My sense is that Arca-Swiss representation in the U.S. and Canada is going to improve and that he's going to be very hands-on.

There are also two Twitter accounts: @ArcaSwissUSA and @RodKlukas. Apparently Martin Vogt also has a Twitter account (referred to in one of Klukas's Tweets), but he doesn't use it

[Helen Bach]

Is there a linhof/technica type adapter for the 6x9 type frame?

Not from Arca Swiss, but SK Grimes makes them. Mine is still on order from them, so I can't comment on its robustness.

Best,
Helen

[r.e.]

I only have 171x171 4x5 and 8x10 cameras, but let me try a few of the questions:

1. Have the bellows (both wise and standard) been changed between the new 141 and old 171 4x5 frames?

Yes. Indeed, there are posts on the internet that express reservations (well-founded or not I don't know) about the 141x141 for reasons related to the 141x141 bellows.

2. Have the focus frame carriers changed between the 141 and 171 systems?

There are three lines of Function Carriers - Basic (used on the Arca Swiss Discovery, no longer offered), F-line and Orbix - and as far as I know, there have been no changes to them with the introduction of the 141x141 standards/bellows.

3. Can the collapsible rail slot directly into an arca clamp without a base?

All of the rails that I have seen for Arca-Swiss cameras have to be attached to a base that is in turn slotted into an Arca-Swiss quick release clamp. There is also a base that has a 3/8" threaded hole so that it can alternatively be screwed directly to a 3/8" screw. The Arca-Swiss Discovery came with this latter base.

If you are in the market for one of these cameras, I'd suggest that you call Rod Klukas and discuss your questions with him.

[Rod Klukas]

I only have 171x171 4x5 and 8x10 cameras, but let me try a few of the questions:

1. Have the bellows (both wise and standard) been changed between the new 141 and old 171 4x5 frames?

Yes. Indeed, there are posts on the internet that express reservations (well-founded or not I don't know) about the 141x141 for reasons related to the 141x141 bellows.

2. Have the focus frame carriers changed between the 141 and 171 systems?

There are three lines of Function Carriers - Basic (used on the Arca Swiss Discovery, no longer offered), F-line and Orbix - and as far as I know, there have been no changes to them with the introduction of the 141x141 standards/bellows.

3. Can the collapsible rail slot directly into an arca clamp without a base?

All of the rails that I have seen for Arca-Swiss cameras have to be attached to a base that is in turn slotted into an Arca-Swiss quick release clamp. There is also a base that has a 3/8" threaded hole so that it can alternatively be screwed directly to a 3/8" screw. The Arca-Swiss Discovery came with this latter base.

If you are in the market for one of these cameras, I'd suggest that you call Rod Klukas and discuss your questions with him.

Function carriers are in three types: The discovery type(Non focusing), F-line classic with dynamic movements, and the F-line metric with geared shift. Orbix, geared tilt, is an addition to the front frame, not the carriers.
Rod

[Emmanuel BIGLER]

Hello from Besançon, France !

Before I finished typesettng this long post, Rod has answered, so hello Rod !

Some answers and additional information.

About weights:
Some information here in the archives about the 110-141 configuration
http://www.largeformatphotography.in...862#post209862

Kerry Thalmann had posted (in 2004, hence just when the 141-line was introduced) a very detailed weight budget for Arca Swiss "171" monorail cameras.

http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ht=arca+weight

Selected weights for different parts relevant to this discussion

110 F-classic format frame including manual Orbix: 340 g

The legendary 110-141 universal molded leather bellows (I use it with a 45mm apo grandagon on a recessed 110 board, maximum bellows draw about 270 mm): 200 g

141 F-classic rear frame with 141-to-graflok plate, without ground glass:
330 g

141 ground glass springback: 370 g

-----------

misura 4x5"
The full misura configuration with simplified front and rear function
carriers (no gear at front, no tilts no shifts at rear)
110 F-classic format frame including manual Orbix: 340 g
110-141 universal molded leather bellows: 200 g
141 F-classic rear frame without ground glass: 330 g
141 ground glass + 4x5" graflok latches: 370 g
front function carrier, similar to the discovery's with no gear: 370 g
rear function carrier with no tilt no shift (misura-specific): 160g
misura-specific 32 cm folding rail + oval plate + short classic dovetail: 590 g
total: 2360 g, less that the 6x9 F-line !!
ever-ready leather case, misura-specific: 500 g.

---

6x9 F-metric

Arca Swiss F-metric compact 6x9-6x9, 300 mm (12") folding rail, optional Orbix® in front. Current model as of 2011, unchanged since 2004.

Front "metric" format frame including 6x9 Orbix®: 341 g
Rear "metric" format frame: 281 g
(Additional weight of the 6x9 Orbix®: 60 g)
Standard 75-150 6x9-6x9 bellows, 110x110 frames: 95 g

6x9 ground glass & Fresnel lens: 150 g

300 mm (123) Folding Rail type II: 314 g
Connecting bracket to quick release clamp, 8.5 cm type II: 123 g

Functions carrier "metric" w. geared self-locking shift, front: 583 g
Functions carrier "metric" w. geared self-locking shift, rear: 603 g

Additional compendium rod holder: 27 g

Typical lens mounted on a 110 board ; 400-600 grams, heavier for telephotos of course.


Total weight of the 6x9 metric: about 2.5 kg / 5.5 pounds, slightly more than the misura w/o leather case but with base-plate. Clearly, metric functions carriers add bout 100 grams each (200 g for 2x) w/respect to classic non-geared models. Metric frames are probably similar within a few grams to a classic non-geared frame. I had measured 1700 grams for both classic 6x9 standards, function carriers and bellows. Subtracting 100 grams for the bellows yields 800 grams for a non-metric functions carrier plus a non-metric frame. Classic non-geared functions carrier are therefore about 520 grams each. To be confirmed, I no longer have them handy ;-)


Other Comments.

The 6x9 Orbix mechanisms adds only 60 g to the weight and virtually nothing to the height of the frame. Truly amazing. The 4"x5" model is probably bigger, I do not know.

The rear metric functions carrier has an additional overhanging platform to short en the length between both standards.

The 8.5 cm connecting bracket @123 g represents 30% of the weight of the 30cm rail+bracket assembly . The simplified misura clamping dovetail saves weight.

The front misura standard is the same as a 6x9 non-metric with orbix so about 340 grams.


--------------------------------------------------------

Answers and comments to previous posts :

(from r.e; )

There are three lines of Function Carriers - Basic (used on the Arca Swiss Discovery, no longer offered), F-line and Orbix

Actually, the orbix is an optional miniature goniometer stage that can be purchased new as an option or retrofitted to the base of any F-line of F-metric front standard in all 3 sizes 110, 141 and 171. Adding a manual orbix to an existing 6x9 F-metric frame only adds 60 grams. The orbix has two variants, the manual one (mine) and the geared (micrometric) one. If you consider the orbix option and if you often take pictures in the outdoors with mittens in winter, the geared orbix is for you. If you always work without gloves, the manual orbix will offer you almost the same smoothness and precision.

Adding an orbix to an existing frame is straightforward from a commercial point of view but it requires the format frame to be sent to Besançon. Except if the company's policy has changed (Rod can confirm), this work is not done by Precision Camera Works, the US authorised Arca Swiss service centre.
http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/...arca_core.html

So before ordering a new camera without the orbix, consider the additional cost (parts, labour, postage) of having an orbix added afterwards with respect to the price of the option for a new item.

The 3-rd line of function carriers in the F-line is the F-metric carriers. Plus the "3.5-rd" one, the misura's.

---

Other issues:
(from l2oBiN)
Can the collapsible rail slot directly into an Arca clamp without a base?

Arca Swiss quick-release dovetails are now offered in two sizes. The Classic, and the Slidefix, which is smaller. The smaller Slidefix width corresponds to the upper rail width hence the folding (collapsible) rail. The classic dovetail width corresponds to the lower rail of the telescopic rail, of the short connecting 8.5 cm bracket.

Hence you do what you wish.

If you wish to connect to a Classic-style of dovetails, either you use the telescopic rail or you add the short 8.5cm bracket to a simple non-folding rail element, or to a folding rail. Or you can directly connect your rail to a slidefix system, of to the smaller dovetail of, say, a Z1 ball-head with quick-release clamp. Arca Swiss tripod head clamps now feature 2 dovetails corresponding to the 2 sizes: the Classic (broader = 8.5 bracket or telescopic brackets) and the Slidefix (narrower = upper rails, folding rails).

F-line folding rails exist in 2 types, type I and Type II. Folding rails have been introduced by Philippe Vogt with the F-line cameras and were not offered by the Oschwald brothers before 1984. Type I F-line rails have the same shape as the Oschwald's but in black finish and exist in the fold-able version. You recognise them because they feature a slim rectangular hole in the section of the rail. Rails type II feature a bigger circular hole where you can connect an extension rail. Both Oschwald and F-line Type I rails have threaded holes underneath, 1/4"-20 and 3/8"-16 as usual in photography. But it is not a good idea to screw a view camera on a tripod head each time you set up the camera ... any kind of quick-release system is much better.

Why is the weight..
Why ? The weight is due to Newton's Laws of Gravitation

and dimension of the 6x9 (110?) type frame?
See above details

Has this [6x9 - 110 mm] frame also been updated?

Unchanged from a user's point of view, as described in the well-known download-able pdf catalogue describing the 110 and 171 systems. Look at page 21 for the various 6x9 bellows and recommended focal lengths. http://www.rodklukas.com/resources/arca.pdf

Can the 069000 be used with the 6x9 frame to gain additional rise when needed?

Yes. I do not use it. The extender ref 069000 is primarily intended for 5x7" and 8x10" cameras. but the dovetails are the same since the function carriers are the same from 6x9cm to 8x10".

Have the focus frame carriers changed between the 141 and 171 systems?

No external, user-visible changes. The 141 camera line features the misura with specific function carriers; the misura was the first camera using 141 mm frames and bellows.

Don't hesitate to ask all questions here !

--

Emmanuel (who is typing this message 5 minutes drive from Arca Swiss International

Usual disclaimer, I've never been, and I'm NOT affiliated with the company, I'm simply a very ordinary satisfied customer .... living 5 minutes drive from the company's European office

[John Schneider]

Adding an orbix to an existing frame is straightforward from a commercial point of view but it requires the format frame to be sent to Besançon. Except if the company's policy has changed (Rod can confirm), this work is not done by Precision Camera Works, the US authorised Arca Swiss service centre.

Hi Rod (and Emmanuel),

Can you confirm that Arca can add Orbix to an existing format frame (in this case, adding Micrometric Orbix to a 110 frame)? Many thanks.