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Thread: Law on photography update

  1. #331

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    Larsen v Ft Wayne PD...in which the plaintiff's claim to First Amendment right to take photos of a high school event was rejected because of Porat - the court actually cited Porat directly:
    "As a fundraiser, the Boosters contracted with Huntington Media Services to professionally videotape the competition, which could then be purchased. (Damerell Dep. 15, 33-34; Damerell Aff. ¶ 3; Larsen Dep. 113; Karl Hans Dep. 9-10; Nancy Hans Dep 10-11; Bumpass Dep 7.) As a result, no flash photography or videography was permitted during the competition.*fn6 (Damerell Dep. 12, 33; Karl Hans Dep. 9-10; Nancy Hans Dep 10-11; Bumpass Dep 7.) Tom Moupin, Northrop's show choir director, was the designated signatory on the contract. (Pl.'s Designation of Evidence. Ex. S.) Signs notifying spectators of this rule were posted at the admission table and on an easel at the end of the table; Larsen contends, however, that these signs were difficult to read. (Glock Dep. 8; Larsen Dep. 32-34; Baughan Dep. 9.) No signs about the rule were posted outside the school or on any exterior entrance door. (Larsen Dep. 32-34; Baughan Dep. 9, 15.)"

    So they already had someone that was hired exclusively to shoot the event and had signs posted all over that no video was allowed on account of the boosters having a deal to sell videos shot as a fundraiser. Then the guy who was arrested for fighting with the cops over his rights which is clearly stated here

    "The volunteer then offered to refund Larsen's admission price, but Larsen claimed that he was experiencing almost like a "bait and switch". (Larsen Dep. 34.) He told the volunteer that since Northrop was public property he could videotape and photograph whatever he wanted. (Larsen Dep. 34.) The volunteer explained to Larsen that the event had hired a professional videographer and that he was free to buy a copy of the video; Larsen responded, "Well, we will see about that," and proceeded to walk toward the gymnasium, still carrying his video equipment. (Larsen Dep. 34, 37.)"

    Okay Cyrus lets me see if I got this right.

    The guy was at a private event at a private school building where they had signs posted stating that he could not do what he wanted to do and he then continued to do it anyway. Then later he lied to the police officer

    "Larsen told Officer Glock that if he was being paid by the school, he had no authority as a police officer. (Glock Dep. 17.) He also questioned whether FWCS had obtained consent to videotape his daughter and sell the recordings. (Larsen Dep. 40-41.) Finally, Officer Glock told Larsen that he had to follow the rules regarding no videography, and if not, he would be arrested. (Larsen Dep. 40-41.) Larsen responded: "Well, you do what you think you have to do." (Larsen Dep. 41.)"

    then when he thought he was certain on the law and pressed the school about it here
    Once he confirmed that Damerell was indeed a school official, Larsen asked: "Maybe you can answer a question for me?" (Larsen Dep. 48.) Larsen then questioned Damerell about the no videography rule and whether the school had obtained releases from the performers, stating that he had not given such consent on his daughter's behalf. (Larsen Dep. 48-49.) Damerell stated that he did not know whether consents were obtained, and Larsen responded: "Well, it is my experience, in years of photography, that if you wish to videotape and sell a person's image, you need permission of anybody whose identifiable in that image before you sell it." (Larsen Dep. 48-49.) Damerell then suggested that the show choir application completed by the choir director probably provided the authorization, but Larsen stated: "My daughter is a minor and neither my wife nor I have signed any type of authorization. Certainly a show choir director doesn't have consent to authorize this on behalf of somebody else." (Larsen Dep. 49.)

    Finally, Damerell suggested to Larsen that if he did not want his daughter to be videotaped, he could remove her from the competition. (Larsen Dep. 49; Damerell Dep. 38-39.) Larsen responded: "You are missing the point I am trying to make. Unless you have the consent and release of every performer here, you can videotape, but you can't sell them; otherwise you could face unforeseen consequences." (Larsen Dep. 49.) Damerell simply responded that he "look[ed] forward to hearing from [Larsen]" and then turned around and walked away. (Larsen Dep. 49.) Damerell states that during this interaction, which he describes as a "discussion", he never perceived Larsen as a threat to his or anyone else's safety and describes him as "argumentative". (Damerell Dep. 15, 17, 24, 26; Damerell Dep. 28, July 13, 2007.)

    Seems to me he was told many times to not do it as there was someone that was videotaping it for a fundraiser and then he went about doing whatever he wanted and would not pull his daughter from the show and leave without incidence.

    Yet amazingly he has no memory of what happened when he told the officers they could not make him do anything.

    Once again this is about the act of photography being against the law. This is about videotaping, not photography. Non flash photography was permitted at this event. Also it is clear that their were signs posted stating why he could not videotape it (which were noble reasons) yet he felt he had the right to do and say anything he wished.

    Also in the findings part C you can see that indeed his first amendment rights were not impinged upon

    Moreover, concerning any claim Larsen may have that Defendants unconstitutionally restricted his right to "receive and record information", see Whiteland Woods, L.P. v. Twp. of West Whiteland, 193 F.3d 177, 183 (3rd Cir. 1999), rather than simply restrict his expression, that too is unsuccessful. The restriction against videography did not "meaningfully interfere" with a spectator's ability to inform himself or herself about the show choir event. Id. That is, the rule prohibiting videography regulated the "manner" in which access by spectators occurred, not the spectator's underlying right of access to the event. Id. Spectators were free to attend the performance and gather information "by means other than by videotaping", including non-flash photography. Id. Accordingly, Larsen has failed to show that the restriction against videography at the show choir event violated his First Amendment rights. See D'Amario, 639 F. Supp. at 1543 (concluding that a public civic center's invocation of a "no camera" rule by request of the musical performer "sails past . . . scrutiny without difficulty"); see generally Carlow v. Mruk, 425 F. Supp. 2d 225, 247-48 (D.R.I. 2006) (collecting cases holding that "prohibitions on videotaping public meetings do not violate the First Amendment").

    So what was the point of you using this case that is another case of the person was asked to leave and did not...

  2. #332

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
    ... freedom to observe and record, think, reflect perhaps and then impulsively or thoughtfully express some though, idea, concept or image. It could be as simple as "The Are Flowers in San Francisco". That a judge feels that is not some idea of value is hardly relevant.
    Being a rather simple-minded but practical man, here is what I've learned from this thread: When asked why I'm taking photos, simply say, "to record this event/scene in order to share/explain my experience with others." Saying one is a professional will just lead to permit fees, and saying one is an amateur just leads to assumptions that the photos are essentially frivolous or without meaningful content, and just saying that I have the right is believed by some to be wrong. Above all, it appears to me that NOT getting in front of a judge for this or any other reason is a reasonable life goal.

    Oh... and if told to scram, that is probably a good idea.

  3. #333

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    Re: Law on photography update

    ... maybe I'n no fun anymore but I yam who I yam.

  4. #334

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by r.e. View Post
    No, don't explain some more. It isn't helping.

    When the charge is causing a disturbance, the question is whether the accused did so. At the trial, the witnesses, including any police officers, are expected to testify about the facts, and the judge decides whether those facts prove the offense. Unless there is something like the legality of a police search in issue, none of this has anything to do with reviewing police conduct..
    Yes and when did I say that they don't have to prove the offense? Of course they have to prove it ( I edited my post to make this clearer) - the officer's testimony that something created a hazard is itself evidence of that, and as I said the judge will defer to that testimony. The cop will say "as a trained professional law enforcement officer with 10 years of experience, I considered the Defendant's conduct to pose a danger to the public" and he may for example further back it up by saying that you were "hindering traffic" or "scaring children" or whatever. But the point is that the judge will tend to take his word for it - this isn't a matter for which the judge will substitute his own independent judgment in the place of the cop on what sort of actions are hazardous or not. Note I'm not saying that the judge will automatically believe the cop - I said he'll defer to the cop.

  5. #335

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by OldCrow View Post
    "So what was the point of you using this case that is another case of the person was asked to leave and did not...
    You asked for an example of a case in which Porat was cited. I provided that case. I didn't argue whether the case was ultimately rightly or wrongly decided. I don't care, that's not the point. The point is that Porat is being cited as the law in other cases, and is not "obscure."

  6. #336

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by Asher Kelman View Post
    Brian and Cyrus,
    Essentially, without collecting information that might lead to formation of speech, there can be no free speech! Today, photography is universally recognized as part of repeatedly sampling one's surrounding for remembering, entertainment and communicating what was seen to others.
    Bingo! when it comes to "remembering" and recording.

  7. #337

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    You asked for an example of a case in which Porat was cited. I provided that case. I didn't argue whether the case was ultimately rightly or wrongly decided. I don't care, that's not the point. The point is that Porat is being cited as the law in other cases, and is not "obscure."
    A case where it was against the law to "Photograph something with non communicative value"... not another case of someone thinking they know their rights on private property. Oh and them being very wrong. It is obscure if only one case in millions a year has used it.

    Are you really a lawyer? It is not being cited as a law. It is being used as a "basis of ruling".

    Okay let me break this down into kindergarten level law for you.

    1. Cite a case where it shows the Porat case being used and the ruling is upheld that it is indeed illegal to "photograph something that is non-communicative.". Since we are talking about it being a law that people can not photograph anything with non communicative value and you have said people have been arrested and have faced the man for this exact thing.

    2. Why have you moved away from the fact that you used the Porat case as some reference material to your own lawsuit?

    Just pick and choose what you want to answer and pick out the pieces you want to you use. Sorry we all keep shooting wholes in your barrel of BS, but honestly you are just running around like chicken little.

  8. #338

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by OldCrow View Post
    A case where it was against the law to "Photograph something with non communicative value"... not another case of someone thinking they know their rights on private property. Oh and them being very wrong. It is obscure if only one case in millions a year has used it.

    Are you really a lawyer? It is not being cited as a law. It is being used as a "basis of ruling".

    Okay let me break this down into kindergarten level law for you.

    1. Cite a case where it shows the Porat case being used and the ruling is upheld that it is indeed illegal to "photograph something that is non-communicative.". Since we are talking about it being a law that people can not photograph anything with non communicative value and you have said people have been arrested and have faced the man for this exact thing.

    2. Why have you moved away from the fact that you used the Porat case as some reference material to your own lawsuit?

    Just pick and choose what you want to answer and pick out the pieces you want to you use. Sorry we all keep shooting wholes in your barrel of BS, but honestly you are just running around like chicken little.
    1- Porat doesn't say that the SOMETHING you're photographing has no communicative value. Porat says that if you're photographing ANYTHING, and don't intend to communicate a message to someone else, then your act of photography is not a form of expression protected by the first amendment. Porat doesn't judge the communicative value of the thing you're photographing; it judges the intent of the photographer in photographing it.

    2- I'm not sure what you're talking about. Porat does not and never did apply to me.

    3- You're a nut and I"m not going to feed trolls. If you feel this is all BS, and that I'm just going to be wasting my money pursuing my lawsuit because I'm just a kooky 20year old (not!) as you insisted in the silly private mssages you 've been sending me, etc, please feel free to not get involved. PLEASE FEEL FREE TO GO AWAY.

  9. #339

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    Bingo!
    Bingo what? If you notice that in this one statement that Asher left there is the big word in there that does not hold up in a court anywhere. Might...

    Might lead...

    Also it is clear that speech has to be a globally understood form of communication (Verbal or written). Which I hate to say photography is not.

    http://legal-dictionary.thefreedicti...edom+of+Speech

    You are mixing up freedom of expression and documentation. Not speech under the constitution.

  10. #340

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    Re: Law on photography update

    Quote Originally Posted by cyrus View Post
    Yes and when did I say that they don't have to prove the offense? Of course they have to prove it - the officer's testomony that something created a hazard is itself proof of that and as I said the judge will defer to that testimony. The cop will say "as a trained professional law enforcement officer with 10 years of experience, I considered his course of conduct to pose a danger to the public" and he may for example further back it up by saying that you were "hindering traffic" or "scaring children" or whatever. But the point is that the judge will tend to take his word for it - this isn't a matter for which the judge will substitute his own independent judgment in the place of the cop on what sort of actions are hazardous or not. Note I'm not saying that the judge will automatically believe the cop - I said he'll defer to the cop.
    You seem now to have abandoned the assertion that this is a matter of legal standard and are instead saying what you think judges "tend" to do in practice. You are entitled to your opinion on how judges go about assessing witnesses and facts, but let me suggest that most judges are acutely aware of the fact a major part of their job is to come to an independent judgment about the facts. In any any event, a significant part of your argument now seems to come down to a sociological assertion, of questionable validity, about how judges do their jobs.
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