Rodinal, FP4+, jobo, grain?

[atlcruiser]

Not sure what happened here. I normally do 6 45 in the small jobo tank w/reel for the 45s. I use rodinal 1:50, 500ml water to 10ml rodinal. I do this at about 66' keeping it cool to avoid grain for 12.5 min. I never have any issues with excesive grain.

I normally only do 6 45s at a time on the reel in the small tank. Last night I used 2 reels for 12 negatives in the larger tank. Instead of 500ml of water and 10ml of rodinal i used 1000ml of water and 20ml of rodinal.

My thought was to make sure I had enough rodinal in there to avoid exhaustion. Time and temp was the same but agitation might have been a bit slower due to the added weight in the tank.

I got lots of grain. It is not excessive but more than I expected. I will be contact printing these so they will be fine but i and racking my head as to what happened.

I cant see why the additional rodinal would cause this issue nor a slightly slower agitation. The FP4+ is from a new box.

I did not measure the water temp but it should have been very close to 66'-68' but I dont think the temps would cause grain either? Maybe?

Any thoughts?

Thanks in advance

Here is a fame that does not have the excessive grain:


0711 bw 45004.jpg by urbanlandcruiser, on Flickr


And here is a frame form last night with the grain:


0811 BW 45 019.jpg by urbanlandcruiser, on Flickr

[ic-racer]

During inversion one liter of fluid moving past the film may have more velocity and turbulence, thus causing more agitation effects on development

[vinny]

try again using 500ml for the first 1/2 your developing time and the other 500ml for the second half.

[atlcruiser]

I should have mentioned this was in a CPE-2. My thought was the motor might be turning a bit slower due to the added weight of the additional 500ml.

I like your idea Vinny. Once I really thought about it 2.5ml of rodinal is enough for 1 roll of 35mm. 1 roll of 35mm = 1 sheet of 810. I sheet of 810 = 4 sheets 45. 12 sheets 45 = 3 sheets 810 = 3 rolls of 35mm = 7.5ml rodinal I used 20ml of rodinal in 1000ml of water when my "normal" amount of 10ml in 500 ml would have been plenty!

I think the issue was the additional amount of fluid sloshing around in there adding to the agitation...I guess that makes sense?

Looks like I did not need the additional rodinal anyway!

[EdWorkman]

Pic one has no untextured broad areas of gray.
Pic two has very little texture, and low local contrast where there is texture.
Looks like subject failure.
Have you similar scenes developed each way?
That is a neg for scene 2 developed as for scene 1.

[atlcruiser]

Not sure I am following you..subject failure?

I did look at both images scanned and the grain really pops out in the 2nd image when compared to the sky in the first image.

[Mark Sampson]

EdW means that the large areas of low-contrast grays in your 2nd image emphasize the grain. It's less apparent in the fine details of the 1st image. I can't see any grain on my monitor, so can't offer any help. Beyond saying that if you don't like grain, don't use Rodinal; visible grain is the price of sharpness with that developer.

[Roger Cole]

EdW means that the large areas of low-contrast grays in your 2nd image emphasize the grain. It's less apparent in the fine details of the 1st image. I can't see any grain on my monitor, so can't offer any help. Beyond saying that if you don't like grain, don't use Rodinal; visible grain is the price of sharpness with that developer.

It's easy to see the grain on a computer monitor, but not within the forum.

Click the image. This will open the image on the Flickr site (the way I have Firefox set it opens in a new tab, YMMV on that depending on browser and whether Flickr forces that behavior.) Then right click the image there and select "original" to see it at full size. It's hugely larger than my 19" CRT monitor.

Some of the apparent difference is in the subject, but I don't think that's all of it. I'm also skeptical of the "more liquid caused more sloshing around causing more agitation" theory. Maybe that's true but it doesn't seem likely to me.

[atlcruiser]

Now we are making more sense to me.

I can really see the grain issue with a loupe on a light table not to mention a scan seen a full res.

I have used rodinal for quite a while and I love it. Grain is a general issue with rodinal but by keeping the temp down around 66' the worst of the grain is avoided so I cant agree that rodinal automatically means large grain.

Roger....I admit I am grasping at straws here but I like the non-scientific "sloshing" theory

This is really a learning exercise..I want to know what happened so I can apply the lesson at a later date

thanks to all

[Roger Cole]

If the extra agitation had produced extra grain it would essentially be developing more and would also have produced more contrast.

I've never noticed that temperature had any effect at all on grain provided time was adjusted accordingly. How in the world do you keep it 66 in the Atlanta area? My "cold" tap water is coming out at about 80. I settled on 75F years ago because room temperature was usually that or lower and it was easier for the Jobo to bring it up than for me to bring it down. Recently in my darkroom it's been right at 75F ambient.