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Thread: How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

  1. #21

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    Let me first say that I like Michael's, and Paula's, images very much. But I also have seen pretty much straight prints from them both. Not much change in what was there to begin with. The prints represent the tonalities that existed in the scene withoput much change in printing. I may be wrong, and please reply and set me straight if this assumption is wrong, but after looking at a whole lot of your prints Micheal, I think I understand your puzzlement of why Sexton takes longer to make a final print than you do. Where Michaels prints are fairly literal interpretations of the scene as it was, Sexton's prints are non literal, heavily manipulated interpretations of the tonalities that existed in the original scene. Having seen him make prints from new negatives, and having seen the sites he has photographed, the prints of these scenes are heavily changed. And this is even more so in his recent images in his book "Places of Power". The tonalities of the scene are changed. He uses the zone system to get a negative that will give him the information he needs to then proceed to develop the print as he wants it to be and not how it really appeared. If you saw some of the ruins in person he has photographed, and then looked at the prints that have been made of these ruins, you would see the differences he makes through the printing controls he employees to get the print and feeling he is after. The original scene and it's appearance in the print are two very different things. I think this is where Robert is coming from. Each printer has their own interpretation of a scene and all are as valid as the other. If we were all the same it would get boring quickly. I appreciate Michael's methods and how he arrives at his prints. But it is not the only method in producing a print. And I am glad of that. Keep em coming Michael. I hope to see you at PhotoLA 2002. Or at least a lot more prints. James

  2. #22

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    I would imagine Sexton is more concerned with making the "expressive" print, rather than the "correct" print.

  3. #23

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    damn, bigmac, you beat me to it.

  4. #24

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    Bigmac and others,

    That's an interesting point. However, since you weren't with us at the scene photographed you cannot see the extent to which we have exposed and developed the negative to change the tonalities. Sometimes our prints have the same tonalities as the scene we photographed and sometimes they are quite different. The way we expose and develop or negatives often changes the tonalities significantly. There is a particular tonal look I like to my prints--the major influence on my printing was old engravings and I expose and develop accordingly.

    That being said, there are a number of interesting issues that your comments call up. When either Paula or I expose a negative we are seeing not only the shapes and forms and objects; we are also seeing the tonal relationships and it is that we are responding to as much as anything else. (I have often said that I am not photographing things but am photographing relationships.) That being the case, there is no need to do excessive manipulation to get the print that we feel is the most expressive print. From the teaching we have done, and from the many photographers we know, we have found that tonal relationships between each and every thing in the photograph are something often overlooked when photographers are exposing their negatives--so they need to do extensive manipulation later to get what they want.

    But there is a bigger and more interesting question your comment calls up as well--it has to do ones influences and one's world's view. Both Paula and I happened, as it turned out, to have had Edward Weston's photographs as our first influence in photography. In fact, it was seeing Weston's work that got us both making photographs in the first place, albeit over 20 years apart. Weston printed pretty much as we do- -some dodging and burning to balance the print, but not anything else. Sexton's main influence was Ansel Adams. Adams often manipulated his prints and changed the tonalities significantly to get an "expressive" print.

    So what is the essential difference between Weston and Adams in this regard? Weston talked about not wanting to impose himself on nature, talked about the straightforward recognition of himself in the world. He said that what he was photographing was, "the me of universal rhythms." Adams, on the other hand, had a quite different approach: he thought nothing of changing tonal relationships to get what he felt-- the tonal relationships already existing in the world weren't enough for him. Either that or he did not see them in the most expressive way.

    I have never had much of an interest in Adams or in his approach. It always seemed to me to be too much "look at me." Weston's, to my way of thinking, more respectful approach, always has had strong appeal. For myself I have put it this way, "The world has more to teach me than I have to teach it." I hope to always learn and to grow, both as an individual and as a photographer. I feel that to impose myself on the world (in the manner of manipulating my prints to make them more "expressive") would not teach me anything, it would simply confirm what I know. But to discover, already existing in the world, relationships that imply the universal without my having to interfere--from that I learn a great deal.

    I certainly hope my photographs, my prints, are expressive, as Weston's surely are. It is just that the expression comes from a different place than does the expression in Adams's and Sexton's photographs. There is no right or wrong in this. It ultimately is a question of who one is.

    I don't believe that it has been publicly posted, but since you mentioned it I will make an announcement: Paula and I will be at Photo LA from January 17-20. We, as Lodima Press, our publishing company have a booth there. We invite all participants on this list to visit us there and see our prints first hand. If you come, please introduce yourselves--it would be nice to put faces to the names.

  5. #25

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    Aaron, I hope you're reading this exchange, as it relates to your question: what is meant by personal vision?

    Since I print in gum bichromate, my answer to the present question wouldn't be of much use to the group, but I am enjoying reading this thread.

  6. #26

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    Mr. Smith,

    Perhaps just as you advise that we shouldn?t judge you because we weren?t there, so should you take that same advice when judging Mr. Sexton?

    You say we don?t know the extent to which you change tonalities, doesn?t Mr. Sexton also do this? As did Mr. Adams? And yet you criticize them for doing so. This seems to suggest that there is some arbitrary point that you seem to have that no one else is to go beyond? You say there is no right or wrong in these methods, yet you continue to talk of as if these people are making "mistakes", such as,

    "overlooked when photographers are exposing their negatives--so they need to do extensive manipulation later to get what they want. "

    Adams wasn?t interested in showing only what existed, but wanted to show, in print, the result of the combination of what he saw and what he felt. Adams was very expressive, Nature moved him, and he wanted to show how in a visual sense, is there something wrong with that? Perhaps you should explore the lesser known works of Adams, I think that you would be suprised.

    One way is more "respectful" than another? Please explain how that is possible?.



    I have no problem with your preference for Weston over Adams or your preference for how you do your darkroom work, but please, please do not tell me that the rest of us are wrong and are going down the wrong path.

  7. #27

    Join Date
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    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    Hi Keith,

    When I print, I usually find that I have better results when I print a negative that I have a "passion" for on that particular day. If someone asks me to make a particular print, I usually have trouble if I am not in the mood for it - it can seem forced or unmotivated. But if I feel that a negative may contain a possible gem, and I have a desire to tackle it head on, then I think there is a good chance for making something "fine". As to time, when I am loving the process, 6 hours can seem like 6 minutes, and time can kiss my ass during those magic moments. The only thing on my mind is that negative and the magic that is appearing on the paper. At the end of the session, if I can get a print that seems like a jewel in its appearance - luminous, mysterious, deep, filled with beauty, well, hey, then I feel like somebody had just placed a million dollars into my Paypal account.

    Good luck with your printing!

  8. #28

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    Mr. Lindsay,

    First, I thank you for your comments. This is a wonderful forum for me to put down some things I have been meaning to put down for a long time and I thank you, and everyone else for providing the excuse for me to get to it. Second, I ask you to read more carefully. Where have I told anyone they are doing anything wrong? And I don't believe I criticized anyone. Nor have I judged anyone. What I said was, "I'm curious about something. I assume that John Sexton uses the Zone System to calculate exposure and development of his negatives. And that his determination of exposure and development is a function of how he previsualizes the final print. That being the case, why would it take so long to get a proper straight print, and then so many more hours to dodge, burn, mask, etc. to get a proper print? And then, since the print was previsualized and supposedly exposed and developed properly, why would he first have to live with it for some period of time before figuring out how he wants to print it? That just doesn't make sense to me."

    And it doesn't make sense to me. With all Adams's and Sexton's talk of previsualizing and calibrating the Zone System precisely, I cannot understand that they need to do all of that post-exposure manipulation. There is nothing wrong with doing it. No viewer of a photograph, including me, cares how the finished print comes about. To the viewer it is the object--the photograph itself--that matters. To the maker, however, it is never the thing finished that is important but the process of doing the work--the process of getting there. It is the making that counts, not the things made. I don't care how anyone does their work and I certainly don't begrudge anyone their own pleasure in the process of making their photographs. If some prefer to spend those long hours in the darkroom on each print, I can only say that I hope they get deep pleasure from the process. But to me it still doesn't make sense, given the degree of precision that goes into their making of all the decisions (exposure and development) prior to getting down to make the print, that Sexton and Adams would need to spend all of that time getting what they want. Based on my own experience, I can only assume that something was overlooked when the ground glass was looked at. I make that assumption because I assume they have the technical stuff down pat. If I am wrong, I will happily stand corrected. But I don't know how else to explain the need for the extensive darkroom work.

    I believe, by definition, all photographic artists, and I consider Adams, Weston, Sexton, and myself in that category, are not interested in "copying" their subject. Any commercial photographer can do that. What we all are interested in is making something--a photograph--which goes beyond mere recording. Many years ago I wrote in a statement for a book, "These photographs are really records--records of the interaction between myself and the things recorded." I then went on to say, "It is my hope that the end result of this interaction--the picture--will create an exciting new interaction between itself and the viewer."

    Sexton and Adams both have made many beautiful photographs. I can recognize them as beautiful, but can also recognize that most of them don't do a whole lot for me. And I've thought about why that was so. And I stated why that was so in my previous post.

    Weston's approach ("the thing itself") seems indeed more respectful than Adams's. Given that we all are imposing ourselves when we make a photograph (just the act of photographing does that), it seems to me that the attitude of going humbly before nature (and the rest of the world) is more respectful of it than the attitude of going to nature with the idea that "I want to show what I saw and felt." To repeat in other words: we are all showing what we saw and felt. The difference is in the attitude toward achieving that end. To repeat myself again, "There is no right or wrong in this. It ultimately is a question of who one is."

    There is also a sense of discovery at work with Weston that often wasn't there with Adams. Adams wrote repeatedly about knowing what the light would be like at a particular place and time and then making sure that he was there when the light was "right." He even goes so far in his book, "My Camera in Yosemite Valley," published in 1949, to have a section of recommendations telling other, would-be, photographers what time of day, what time of year, what vantage point, and what filter to use, to get the best results. Weston, on the other hand, stated that he never waited for the light to be right--that the light would always be fine somewhere else if he just looked. Weston didn't know what he would be photographing until he saw it and connected with it, whereas Adams often "knew" ahead of time (not with his best work, though). That's one consequence of Adams's and Weston's different approaches.

    Finally, you should know that I am quite conversant with Adams's photographs--his little known works as well as his better known ones. I have seen many exhibitions of his photographs and have spent countless hours in many museums looking at every print of his they had. I've also done that with Weston's photographs, and with many other photographers work. How could I not have done that? Doesn't everyone who is serious about our beloved medium?

  9. #29
    Robert A. Zeichner's Avatar
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    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    So Keith, you were asking for an example of how long it might take to get from first draft to final print and I just this last weekend came upon a situation that might illustrate my earlier point about rediscovering an abanodoned image. In the fall of 2000, I made a trip to New England and one of the negatives I came back with was made inside a covered bridge. I was aimed toward the end of the bridge at a farm lane flanked by trees and lit by a late afternoon sun. Despite careful exposure calculations and the requisite contraction of development time, which did help a bit, the negative was simply too contrasty to print without manipulation. I attempted to make a simple burning tool which I held under the enlarger, but despite all efforts a year ago, I could not get a print I was satisfied with. The burning was too obvious. I recently discovered some articles in ViewCamera and Photo Techniques on selective dodging and burning masks and with some helpful suggestions from my friend Howard Bond, made a masking fixture for my enlarger and a set of three very simple masks for my covered bridge negative. The initial time needed to fabricate the negative holder aside, the masks took only ten or fifteen minutes to make. I now am able to print this image in one continuous exposure without any manual manipulation whatsoever! But, it did take a little over a year to come upon a solution. I'm now sorting through many other negatives, long abandoned, to see if there are any prospective candidates for selective masking. Even if I only find a handful, or even if I only make some simple masks for negatives that were okay but now might be improved a bit, it will be worth the effort in my view.

  10. #30

    How Long for a 'Fine Print'?

    Mr. Smith,

    I must apologize first for not specifying what I alluded to when I talked of your criticism of others. This was a comment based on your overall attitude toward those of us who use the Zone system that you have expressed throughout the collective forums here. Maybe you don?t realize you are doing it, or maybe I am over reacting, but I always get the distinct feeling that I am one of those "silly little people" who just don?t get it because I use the zone system rather than d.b.i..

    I guess the thing that bothers me most is the myth you continue to spread that Zone system users are constantly testing and have no time for shooting?.very untrue. I am sure however that there are plenty of people out there who do this, zone system or not, but I assure you, I, and many like me, do not. Once my testing is done, one day or two at the most, I am good to go. Nor do I have to retest any of my equipment every time something goes slightly out of calibration. I simply tweak or nudge my e.i. or development times to compensate as I notice slight variations in my negatives/prints. I?ve tested twice in the last 10-15 years, I think I have plenty of time to shoot otherwise.

    I think that the difference between yourself and someone like Sexton is that, although you both strive for a negative that departs from the "literal", I think that (correct me if I?m wrong) you then print a "literal" print from the negative. Sexton, and others like him, perhaps don?t see the negative as the end result of the creative process, rather they see it as the first of two parts. This doesn?t mean that they are unable to get the appropriate amount of information on film just like anyone else, it just means that they are going to take the image, in printing, to a place that the negative is not able to get to regardless of development techniques. Its all about vision, and if your vision allows you to stop the creative step at the completion of the negative, then that?s fine, however some interpretations require not only the manipulation of the negative, but also the print. "The negative is the score and the print the performance", I strongly believe that for my own work and how I see things.

    You stated that there is no right or wrong when it comes to ones own vision, and yet you say that one vision is more honest than another. How can there be no right or wrong in your mind and at the same time have one be more honest than the other?

    I don?t see how knowing that a general area will have interesting light makes any difference in the discovery of images within that area, and I can?t believe that Weston never made a mental note of an area that he passed through.

    Didn?t you say that only the print on the wall matters? Then why would how Adams went about getting his images make any difference? How then could it be considered more or less dishonest?

    I understand that you are very passionate about the way that you practice the craft of photography, but I don?t think it is necessary to criticize another way of doing things to legitimize your own, is it?

    good talking to you, and forgive me if I ever get a little excited (as many here can attest) I am trying to get better, really.

    Mark

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