Aztec Premier

[bob carnie]

Sometimes these things happen and it's best to move to someone who you can communicate with.
I have lost lots of customers over the years and basically I feel it was due to lack of communication between myself and the photographer.
I had clients coming in all the time in the past that I knew were other printers clients asking me to do test prints so they can show the other printer another style.
I refuse to work with most of them as the triangle of two printers and one photographer can never end up good and I rather not get myself in those situations.
I have accepted clients after they have totally run the course with their old lab/printer but I have to spend a lot of time learning how they want their work done and as well convincing them how I work and charge.
I have made long term clients and I have made one shot clients this way and basically it boils down to a give and take situation where both parties feel they are in win/win situation.
I hope you resolve this, if not there are tons of good people on this forum who could help you with scans, or advise you on good used scanners and bring you up to speed and do the work yourself.
I am in a situation right now with a three year client that basically I am going to have to fire, regardless of the money she brings in to my lab. She has twice now brought in two other lab scenerios into my shop , and basically the other labs are playing with her head, as her comprehension of colour management and theory is not strong and no matter what I do , I cannot make her happy , so we have told her to move on and work with the other two labs.

Bob,

There is truth in what you say about their wanting to lose me as a client. They don't make money on these scans and the time involved in getting the final product correct is not really cost effective. They prefer digital sources rather than film at this point so adjustments and other deliberations are minimized.

I don't take it personally. But where I can't communicate the exact look of the final image, I can see that it doesn't work for them. I respect the art and science involved in getting a print right. They want effective use of their time and technology.

With the suggestions others have given, I have a starting place for further discussion with the lab. If they reject them, I will go elsewhere. My sense is that they will coooperate provided I spend more money on the project.

[pdmoylan]

Update. The sales department concurs with my observations about the poor quality scans (after uploading my Epson scans, two phone calls and driving 2.5 hours to meet with them). The poor prints result from what may have been flatbed scans (denied but comparisons suggest otherwise). I say this since we both agreed that one of the scans was clearly inferior to my lowly epson 750 of the same image at the same resolution. I hope by giving them more images to scan, I will have success.

Further updates to come

P.S. They are predicting that within 2 years their e6 and c41 will be discontinued, even though they are constantly busy with NY "runoff" customers whose vendor cannot service them timely. They also think the Epson 9900 series will make C prints obsolete.

[bob carnie]

Cprints from enlargers will become obsolete, but C prints from digital files make up the 50% of printing today in Labs.

Update. The sales department concurs with my observations about the poor quality scans (after uploading my Epson scans, two phone calls and driving 2.5 hours to meet with them). The poor prints result from what may have been flatbed scans (denied but comparisons suggest otherwise). I say this since we both agreed that one of the scans was clearly inferior to my lowly epson 750 of the same image at the same resolution. I hope by giving them more images to scan, I will have success.

Further updates to come

P.S. They are predicting that within 2 years their e6 and c41 will be discontinued, even though they are constantly busy with NY "runoff" customers whose vendor cannot service them timely. They also think the Epson 9900 series will make C prints obsolete.

[pdmoylan]

So after more than a month later, I finally received the first sectional proof and 8x10 FF proof of the misaligned image. Just looking at the enlargement which is magnificent, it is painfully clear that the original scan was probably not from the Aztec. Now I will have to work through 3 other images which were terribly underexposed or had noise etc.

I have not looked at the competition but they are quoting $80 for a 200mb Aztec drum scan. Seems expensive particularly if one has tens of images to scan. I guess I will be looking elsewhere in the near future.

[Lenny Eiger]

So after more than a month later, I finally received the first sectional proof and 8x10 FF proof of the misaligned image. Just looking at the enlargement which is magnificent, it is painfully clear that the original scan was probably not from the Aztec. Now I will have to work through 3 other images which were terribly underexposed or had noise etc.

I have not looked at the competition but they are quoting $80 for a 200mb Aztec drum scan. Seems expensive particularly if one has tens of images to scan. I guess I will be looking elsewhere in the near future.

I got another one of my clients after a lab in SF, now defunct, charged him $250 for a drum scan, and then scanned it on an Epson. He could tell the difference and called them on it, which they finally admitted...

A 200 mb scan is a waste of money, on a Premier, or anything else. I would agree it is overpriced. I charge $150 for an 8x10 scan, but you get 3 Gigs worth of data, all sharp, all tuned to your style. It is true that this is a lot of $$ for a series of negs. This is why people often choose very carefully.... It does take a lot of time to do these scans and that's why the price is high.

Lenny

[Nathan Potter]

So after more than a month later, I finally received the first sectional proof and 8x10 FF proof of the misaligned image. Just looking at the enlargement which is magnificent, it is painfully clear that the original scan was probably not from the Aztec. Now I will have to work through 3 other images which were terribly underexposed or had noise etc.

I have not looked at the competition but they are quoting $80 for a 200mb Aztec drum scan. Seems expensive particularly if one has tens of images to scan. I guess I will be looking elsewhere in the near future.

Fine scanning is both a craft and an art so the scan operator also needs to be a real craftsman. Large and expensive files require a high quality film image to be really worth while. Know who is doing your work and pay them for their effort.

If you value your image enough to want top quality expect to shell out $100 to $200 for the scan at 4X5 size. If less than that the operator can't give the whole process the attention needed for top quality. If you did well cheaper, you were lucky.

My V750 produces a 230 MB file from a 4X5 at an equivalent aperture of perhaps 25 um. If you have a very high quality 4X5 in color you should probably be looking for a 1 Gig file or larger.

If you want quality control you need to do it yourself. Currently you have no analytical way of assessing the quality of a drum scan. I know this is difficult and a big hassle, but I occasionally place a resolution target in a reserved area of the scene, at an edge say. This then appears on the developed film and will get scanned when the film is scanned. Then there is some quantitative data that can be gleaned by examining the resolution target on your computer screen. And yes you sacrifice a bit of the film area but hey; you want quality?

Nate Potter, Austin TX.

[Ron McElroy]

It does take a lot of time to do these scans and that's why the price is high.

Lenny

Just curious Lenny, how long does it take to spin in a large scan like this?

[Noah A]

I agree with Lenny that a 200MB scan from 8x10 is a bit of a waste. (Although if done properly a 200MB scan from the premier should still look very good.)

Even if you're making a small print, it may be smart to get a higher res scan so you never need to have the neg scanned again, even if you decide to make a huge print down the road.

When I got my drum scanner I considered starting a scanning service, but I came to the conclusion that I really couldn't charge any less than the labs or other independent operators out there. If I did charge less, I'd be losing money in terms of my time and resources.

Personally I'd rather get a large $150 scan from Lenny than a small 200MB $80 scan from your lab. I know it's a lot of money, but you have to figure that the Premier is around $40k new. Even if you buy your machine used, if you need service parts and repairs are priced as they would be for a $40k machine. (For example a new power supply is $1500--ask me how I know!) And shipping the thing round-trip to Aztek for service or preventative maintenance is around $600, plus crating, and that's before you even pay for the parts and service!

More importantly though, doing a good scan does take a bit of time and a good amount of skill and experience. If you have a good local lab with a scan operator who will talk things over with you and do a good job, then patronize that lab. If not, look for a place where you can get that kind of excellent service.

In terms of the C-41 and C-print statements, that's curious. I take my C-41 film to Taylor Photo in NJ and they seem to still run a decent amount of C-41. But I never asked them about their future plans.

I'm surprised C-prints are still around. Enlarger prints make sense if you want to stay out of the digital game. But Lightjet and similar machines cost a fortune and the prints probably aren't as archivally stable as a good pigment inkjet print. If you know what you're doing, inkjets can look just as good as digital c-prints. And you can print on a variety of papers.

If you look at labs the digital c-print machines are popular, but if you take all of the photos printed in the world, many of which are printed at home by amateurs and snapshooters, I'd imagine that inkjets are more popular overall. If not, I would imagine that they will be in the near future.

Labs have been pushing the digital c-prints since they need to pay off those expensive lightjet machines!

[pdmoylan]

To get every ounce of detail from an excellent 4x5 chrome a 1 gig file is recommended. So the current lab thinks an 80mb file is sufficient for a 20x24 (which is ridiculous). I am generally happy with files of 128-130mbs with some images needing 200mbs to produce excellent 20x24 prints. My dilemma is that I have too many 4x5 images worth scanning and printing. So files of 1GIG or more at say $150 a pop is, well, is uneconomical. I generally sell my images at between $450 and $500 for a 20x24 with simple metal frame, $250 for the print alone. So at a cost of $150 for the scan, and after adding the print cost, there is no margin. Margins should be at least 100% of costs so my print and scan costs shouldn't exceed $125. Their 200mb drums scans at $80 and print at say $40 seems to work.


As stated earlier, what urks me is the bait and switch. I could live with the cost of the scans if I could be assured they would use the Aztec. I no longer have confidence in them and now they are jerking me around with time delays. Seems like a caustic marriage on the road to divorce.

[Lenny Eiger]

To get every ounce of detail from an excellent 4x5 chrome a 1 gig file is recommended. So the current lab thinks an 80mb file is sufficient for a 20x24 (which is ridiculous). I am generally happy with files of 128-130mbs with some images needing 200mbs to produce excellent 20x24 prints. My dilemma is that I have too many 4x5 images worth scanning and printing. So files of 1GIG or more at say $150 a pop is, well, is uneconomical. I generally sell my images at between $450 and $500 for a 20x24 with simple metal frame, $250 for the print alone. So at a cost of $150 for the scan, and after adding the print cost, there is no margin. Margins should be at least 100% of costs so my print and scan costs shouldn't exceed $125. Their 200mb drums scans at $80 and print at say $40 seems to work

FWIW, the 4x5'sw are only $135... med format $125. However, that's still over your budget. I'd say you have to raise your prices, or amortize the price of the scan over the sale of more than one print... There is only no margin if you have to make it all back on the first print... If you sell 3 prints, it's quite reasonable, or as reasonable as can be... unless you sell 10 prints...

Lenny