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Thread: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

  1. #1
    Land-Scapegrace Heroique's Avatar
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    Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    I have an ethical question about the personal images we post here.

    (And I mean this as an internal, ethical issue – not an external, legal one.)

    What should happen if a forum member posts a personal image, and a second member takes it, changes it significantly w/o permission, and re-posts it?

    Better, what if the first poster had stated a preference that this not be done?

    As we know, this is a public forum, so there are fewer protections against this. Post your image, take your chance. However, it’s also a moderated forum, whose rules presumably bring back some of those protections. For the situation I’ve just described, I don’t think there’s a specific rule – only general ones about being polite and respectful. As far as I can tell, it’s simply the moderator’s call.

    -----
    So here’s my question – directed mainly to our image posters:

    If the original poster asks the forum to remove the manipulated image – even if the manipulation was simply done for self-serving laughs – shouldn’t the forum be obligated to do so? Could any principle be more clear?

    And if no forum obligation exists, then doesn’t this reduce, and possibly shatter the likelihood of people sharing useful images of any kind here, especially ones they care about?

  2. #2
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    We had a similar situation happen rather recently. I don't recall the final resolution.
    Someone posted a photo, and another member took it and created artwork (?painting?) based on it. Same photo but different medium.

    You hold copyright to your images unconditionally, unless you specifically relinquish it.
    As such, you have the legal right to request that a moderator remove any image or copy that infringes your copyright. That's the law.

    I believe the Conditions of Use on this and most photography sites affirms that copyright interpretation.

    That consideration aside, I don't post my best photos online anywhere, not even on my Zenfolio pages.

    - Leigh

  3. #3

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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    But it's no longer the same artwork. Remember the Marlboro man that sold for $N.
    The original photographer got bupkis. That was also commercial work.

    Guess it depends how good your lawyers are.

  4. #4
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    It would depend to a great extent on how unique the image was.

    There are a zillion photos of Mt. Rushmore. It would be a challenge for anyone to prove copyright on any particular one.

    - Leigh

  5. #5
    darr's Avatar
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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    http://www.theartnewspaper.com/artic...Gagosian/23387

    Here is a recent case that was settled in the photographer's favor. BTW, this particular artist made a career of using others works, and from what I understand, now there are many more law suites coming his way for infringement.

  6. #6
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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    Quote Originally Posted by John Koehrer View Post
    But it's no longer the same artwork. Remember the Marlboro man that sold for $N.
    The original photographer got bupkis. That was also commercial work.

    Guess it depends how good your lawyers are.
    Since 1979, and in the U.S. (it's different elsewhere), the originator of an original tangible expression owns the copyright to that expression unless he relinquishes it in writing. There are two general exceptions. One is called a fair use, which only applies to an excerpt that does not have independent commercial value used for educational or critical purposes. A low-resolution or poorly reproduced photo used to write a review would be an example of fair use.

    The other exception is work for hire. Employees do not own their own intellectual property unless they have an agreement in place with their employers that says they do. A contract photographer would have a contract that should stipulate who owns the copyright.

    But the Marlboro Man photograph was made before the Copyright Act of 1978 went into effect, and at that time, the rules were quite different. So, the outcome of that case might not be relevant to the current issue.

    On the topic, I believe that forum users should respect the integrity of a posted photo, unless the photographer specifically invites such editing. In good faith, someone might offer the editing mistakenly, in which case that person should ask the moderators to remove it when requested. Or the moderators should be willing to remove it if requested by the original image maker, unless that person had, when presenting the image, invited such editing. This does not seem to me particularly contentious, nor does it need a resolution of copyright law.

    By the way, copyright applies to derivative works, too. That includes crops, manipulations, and direct conversions to different media.

    Rick "knowing of one photography forum where each participant must declare whether image editing is allowed or not for their images" Denney

  7. #7
    Land-Scapegrace Heroique's Avatar
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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    Fine remarks, Rick & others above.

    I haven’t posted here what I consider to be my best images, I’m just too protective. On the other hand, I’ve always been under the impression that the images I do post here – and which I still care deeply about – have enjoyed moderated protections against internal tampering. The realization that this may not be the case reduces my willingness to share them – even when I see a chance to help another forum member by doing so.

    And if anyone’s reaction is stronger than my own, this very realization may do more than just “reduce” their willingness; it may very well smash it to smithereens. To be sure, the more people who become aware of this situation, the less help & sharing will be offered to this forum with images.

  8. #8
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    By submitting materials to this site, you you are representing that are you are the owner, or are authorized by the owner to do so. As a consequence, all the material posted in this site is assumed copyrighted by their respective authors, and shouldn't be reproduced without permission and proper credit by any means, including framing. The site doesn't claim copyright to any material submitted by readers. However, by submitting materials to this site, you grant a revocable royalty-free licence to the maintainers of this site to publish that material on the largeformatphotography.info site. No other rights are granted, and this licence might be terminated at any time by written request of the owner. The site will not use your materials without proper attribution to you, nor will it edit them in a way that would misrepresent your intent.
    Dude, lighten up and read the guidelines.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  9. #9
    8x10, 5x7, 4x5, et al Leigh's Avatar
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    Question Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    Quote Originally Posted by Heroique View Post
    On the other hand, I’ve always been under the impression that the images I do post here – and which I still care deeply about – have enjoyed moderated protections against internal tampering. The realization that this may not be the case reduces my willingness to share them
    Pardon me, but I think you have completely misunderstood or misconstrued all of the responses.

    Every one above has asserted that the images are unquestionably your property, and will be protected as such. Kirk's post of the forum rules confirms that.

    - Leigh

  10. #10
    Land-Scapegrace Heroique's Avatar
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    Re: Your images here & the internal risks they suffer

    I understand the legal issues at hand, they’re perfectly comprehensible, and the remarks so far about these issues have been clearly stated.

    My remarks mean to address the issue as an internal, ethical one at this site.

    Please see above.

    For example, I’ve been in a situation before in this forum, even recently, where I’ve requested that manipulated images of mine be taken down, and the moderator here that I contacted said, “I’m not going to make changes, but you might consider trying to take it up w/ someone else here.” This suggests, as I indicate above, that a “moderator’s call” is what controls this type of internal situation here – not a clearly stated guideline, including Kirk’s quoted legal text above.

    This type of experience has the potential to reduce anyone’s motivation to post images here. What I’m pointing out, I don’t view as a legal matter – what I’m describing is a very different issue, but a related one. It’s a broad issue that can put this forum at risk as a means for us to help one another, not just a narrow issue that can put any one individual’s work in danger of being changed by someone and displayed for good, at the whim of a moderator.

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