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Thread: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

  1. #21
    Joanna Carter's Avatar
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    Re: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Hoang View Post
    Large format users usually apply different movements for different scenes. We do not use tilt, or shift, or swing... all the time. In your case, just do not use it!
    I too don't have to use movements, but when I do, I find that the "standard" movements are more than enough
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  2. #22
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    Re: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

    I did not buy my F/F2 because it had yaw-free or asymmetric movements. I bought it because it would easily accommodate a 47mm lens, and it was cheap.

    Everything I've read about the yaw-free design (and also about the use of the markings on the Sinar ground glass) is that it is intended for product photography, especially where the monorail will need to be aimed down or up, necessitating the use of tilt controls to achieve rise and fall movements.

    I have always used tilts and swings on the lens standard by visualizing the Scheimpflug relationship and then fine-tuning it based on what I see on the ground glass with a loupe. But I learned that on cameras without all these fancy features.

    One thing I like about the base tilts of the Sinar: It makes the camera more compact compared to a camera with U-frames. And cameras with U-frames often interfere with other accessories, as was the case with my Cambo.

    I think the main reason the Sinar P has the asymmetric control is to provide axis tilts without requiring U-frames. A side-bonus is that it maintains the yaw-free design by putting the tilt control underneath the swing control. Sometimes axis tilts are more convenient and have a smaller effect on overall focus.

    Rick "suspecting that Sinar was devising an external mechanical process to make the trial-and-error loupe-based process seem more deterministic" Denney

  3. #23

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    Re: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Richards View Post
    Thanks urs0polar!! Better than answering my question about P/X, I now understand how my F2 is meant to work!!
    no problem; when my P2 arrived, I was like whoa how do I use this thing. I randomly found that pdf and it's been invaluable.

  4. #24

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    Re: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joanna Carter View Post
    I too don't have to use movements, but when I do, I find that the "standard" movements are more than enough
    Joanna have you ever actually used a camera with front asymmetric movements? If not, then on what are you basing your analysis of faster/slower/enough? Maybe you have, but from reading your posts it seems like you haven't tried it yet. By the way, from your website, I really like your still life magnolia shots. It's pretty obvious you know what you're doing.

    I have a Sinar P2 (base tilt and asymmetric tilt) and a Linhof Kardan GT (normal movements, base tilt as well as axis tilt)... you can do everything with both, but they are just different. On both, you can move the two planes (lens and film) around independent of each other.

    On the p2, if i want to use a back tilt to get things in focus, i turn *one* knob until the two points I want are in focus... no refocusing, no guesstimating about where the scheimpflug line thingy is, none of that. just turn the knob.

    If you want front tilt instead and you've done it right (i.e. your points are roughly in opposite corners and you've turned the knob correctly) and you aren't doing macro stuff, you just transfer the degree reading to the front asymmetric tilt, zero the back, and you are finished.

    On the Kardan GT, you do the trial and error thing; at least I do. If you are super slick at that, then that's cool. I wish I was. I definitely need to practice more.

    One difference in practical terms that I notice is that if I want to purposely get things *out* of focus for creative effect (heh), then the Linhof is easier for me to predict what will go out than the Sinar is... if I want everything *in* focus, then the Sinar is a lot more straightforward. Then again, the sinar does have base tilt, so if you haven't already used that for extended rise and fall or something, then you can do normal stuff there and just not use the asymmetric tilts.

    I'm just a guy who likes this stuff, not a pro, but if I were doing product shots day in and day out, the asymmetric thing would be a Godsend. If I was just doing portraits and landscape, I don't think it's as critical.

    my 2 cents.

  5. #25
    Joanna Carter's Avatar
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    Re: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by urs0polar View Post
    Joanna have you ever actually used a camera with front asymmetric movements? If not, then on what are you basing your analysis of faster/slower/enough?
    I have never used front asymmetric tilts but I have tried rear asymmetric tilts on a friend's Ebony 45SU. Also, the same friend and I were looking to take the same shot, at the same time, because the tide was rising rapidly, and I was set up and had taken the shot before he had even got the focus set



    My friend's problem was finding something that was on the asymmetric focusing line.

    Quote Originally Posted by urs0polar View Post
    If you want front tilt instead and you've done it right (i.e. your points are roughly in opposite corners and you've turned the knob correctly) and you aren't doing macro stuff, you just transfer the degree reading to the front asymmetric tilt, zero the back, and you are finished.
    And there you have the problem with asymmetric tilts in a nutshell; the points have to be in the right place on the screen, etc… With my Ebony SV45Te, I found that I learnt from the "school of life", finding out just what does and doesn't work, using mainly the front axis tilt for most landscape and architectural work. No scales, no gears, just a little tweak here, a little nudge there

    Quote Originally Posted by urs0polar View Post
    On the Kardan GT, you do the trial and error thing; at least I do. If you are super slick at that, then that's cool. I wish I was. I definitely need to practice more.
    I guess it's the same thing with or without asymmetric movements; practice makes perfect

    Quote Originally Posted by urs0polar View Post
    … Then again, the sinar does have base tilt, so if you haven't already used that for extended rise and fall or something, then you can do normal stuff there and just not use the asymmetric tilts.
    That's what I like about the Ebony SV45Te; base and axis tilt on both the front and rear standards, rise and fall on both, swing and shift on both and a bellows extension of over 500mm!!!

    Of course, it's not as rigid as a Sinar, but then it does only weigh 3.3Kg and, of course, it's much more strokeable, being made of wood

    Quote Originally Posted by urs0polar View Post
    I'm just a guy who likes this stuff, not a pro, but if I were doing product shots day in and day out, the asymmetric thing would be a Godsend. If I was just doing portraits and landscape, I don't think it's as critical.
    If I were doing product shots, I would definitely want something as precise as a Sinar; but, since I am not, I love my Ebony.

    BTW, the Magnolia shots were taken on a Mamiya RZ67.
    Joanna Carter
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    Re: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Joanna Carter View Post

    [..]

    My friend's problem was finding something that was on the asymmetric focusing line.

    [..]

    And there you have the problem with asymmetric tilts in a nutshell; the points have to be in the right place on the screen, etc…

    [...]

    BTW, the Magnolia shots were taken on a Mamiya RZ67.
    Yeah, finding things equidistant from the center is a bit of a pain... I didn't even know that this situation had a name .. the asymmetric line. cool.

    My P2 is the 8x10, so it weighs about 22 pounds... not exactly a lightweight.

    On the magnolia shots: My first film camera was a RB67, and it's kind of like LF without the distractions :P

  7. #27

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    Re: How do you use front asymmetric movements?

    I use Ebony SV45U2.It is no "front" asymmetric function. Rear asymmetric function is enough.

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