Anyone Willing To Make Video Using a Pentax 1 Degree Digital Spot Meter

[akfreak]

Hello, I found a deal on a Asahi Pentax 1 degree digital spot meter (if $250 is a deal). It isn't Zone whatever modified, Fred Picker didn't get his hands on it. Reading some of the responses on the net, that may be a good thing.

I have found a copy of the manual, I have read Ansel's the Negative ( in some places it is like reading the phone book to me). I basiclly understand the zone system.

My summary of Zone System. A system where a Photog makes a choice on where to place exposure based on detail in a scene. The zone system has broken tonal range into segments from Black to White but 1 and 10 are useless as they hold no texture. 2 and 9 start to fold texture (depending on film and paper) Zones 3 and 7 are the first zones that really hold texture and when deciding on the proper exposure one will carefully consider the placement of a specific zone, knowing that during the final print one will be able to able to push or pull information on the negative.

Ware as if one was to meter an overall average of a scene and make a proper exposure, you may not be able to achieve the final vision because information such as textures could be lost due to over or under exposing. Grrr this is hard to explain.

Now to how to use the 1 degree spot meter as I understand. You dial in the ASA (iso). Point the meter a low or high zone holding texture info Like Zone 2 or 9 and read the meter, it will give you a number and one or two dots. This number will be the number you use to determine the aperture or shutter speed depending on what zone you want to place that reading on.

One will consider and make adjustments in exposure to preserve detail or use of filters (example, to darken an exposure to control atmospheric conditions or color filters to change final rendering of an image). We are making considerations in exposure knowing we plan to modifying the development when we make the print.

I know that to use the zone system with the spot meter you need to put a little scale representing the zone system on the back of the dials with zone 5 (V) in the middle. I put zone 2 thru 8 on mine to help me visualize what is going on.

Here is an example, I point the meter at a bright spot and get a reading of 9. I dial the 9 to place it on what ever zone I want the reading, for my example I put it in the center across from (V) or zone 5, since the little scale is like a slide rule, I can read all of the other placements by reading the numbers directly across of the zone scale, like 7 on III or 8 on IV or 6 on II (if 9 is on zone 5 (V) then I read the shutter speed and aperture, again like a slide rule, and set my lens and shutter.

Wait there is more. I need to consider belows factor, So I use a tape measure to see how long my bellows is, Inverse square law. How much light loss did I loose because of bellows extension. Make a compensation and shoot. Of course after I have framed and composed, and focused my image.

Man that is a lot of typing to ask this question. I hope you gouns dont ignore me or say no.

Will someone that owns a spotmeter like mine

Make a video tutorial on how to analyze a scene, use this meter to place it on a specific zone any why. Explain the thinking of specific zone placement with respect to the final print. Show how to use the exposure readings are set and adjusted to compensate for bellows factor. Also how the use of filters are considered and what impact they may have to exposure as well as how to make adjustments to correct for any changes. A basic video tutorial on how to use the digital 1 degree spot meter, using the zone system.

I understand lots of film does not have 8 or 9 stops of range. I have used film like Velvia 50 that more like 5 sops of range. I was just trying to explain what I think I know, in the hopes someone will make a video addressing the subject I would like to know more about. I think other new to LF people may like to know this information also.

I am more of a visual learner. I dont really have anyone here in my town to help show me what I am asking. I need clarification, or my brain is going to pop. Also I dont like to waste expensive film, chemistry, and papers or my time on mistakes that can easily be avoided.


I hope one of you if not a few of you will make a video and pass on your information to the new guys, like me.


I feel really stupid trying to explain a complex subject to people who already know, further cementing in their minds I am an idiot! Thanks for your time. It's late and I am so tired. Akfreak <------------- steps away from the puter. Thanks for reading.

[eddie]

i have been thinking about beginning to use videos to describe my lenses for sale.

i will try and get one done for you. no promises on in what time frame. i got plenty happening but probably in the next couple of weeks.

till them. front lit green foliage is zone V. grass etc. this should help you figure out what your highlights and shadows are doing in relation to the zone V grass which is in your scene. if you get a scene with highlights zone VII or VIII in it you are probably going to get a decent print....same goes for the shadows....2-3 zones below V.

try that for a while. this may help you understand it slightly more. you will have to burn up some film and chemicals no matter what.

start with the easily lit situations......crop out bright skies and dark foreground during your initial testing.....they require more "work"

[Ken Lee]

Here is an example, I point the meter at a bright spot and get a reading of 9. I dial the 9 to place it on what ever zone I want the reading, for my example I put it in the center across from (V) or zone 5, since the little scale is like a slide rule, I can read all of the other placements by reading the numbers directly across of the zone scale, like 7 on III or 8 on IV or 6 on II (if 9 is on zone 5 (V) then I read the shutter speed and aperture, again like a slide rule, and set my lens and shutter.

That's correct. Period.

Wait there is more. I need to consider belows factor, So I use a tape measure to see how long my bellows is, Inverse square law. How much light loss did I loose because of bellows extension. Make a compensation and shoot. Of course after I have framed and composed, and focused my image.

Unless you are really "fastidious", you don't need to consider it often, unless you are focusing close. You don't need to do much math either. If your subject is the same size as your film - you're shooting at 1:1 - then open 2 stops extra. If your subject is twice the size of your film - you're shooting at 1:2 - you open 1 stop extra. After that, it hardly matters.

By the way, bellows compensation is required if you are shooting with any camera - it's just that through-the-lens metering lets many cameras adjust automatically. Rangefinder cameras rarely let you focus close enough to matter, so the subject rarely comes up.

The Zone system is very simple. Some people write about it more succinctly than others, as you're about to find out.

[kev curry]

I think you should consider picking up a copy of ''The Practical Zone System'' by Chris Johnson. The zone system is deceptively simple but made out to be notoriously difficult to understand. The book above makes life easy if its read thoughtfully and carefully.

Gem Singer a member here summed the whole ZS up in a few sentences maybe he could repeat them here or do a search and see if you can come across them.

Generally people concern themselves with zone III and zone VII or VIII if there using black and white film.

Light meters make every tone in a scene middle gray regardless of how dark or light they actually are. e.g if u point a spot meter at a black door, read off the readings from the meter then transfer those reading to a lens and shutter, expose the film then print the print you wont have a black door in the print! You'll have a middle grey (zone V) door in the print!

Knowing this fact about how light meters work opens up possibilities. If you wanted the black door to be a black door in the print you would take the meters readings and then stop your lens down a further two stops (zone III).

Say the meter suggested f8/60th sec, you could stop down and shoot at f16 60th/sec. The door would receive 2 stops less exposure/light making it much darker (zone III) than the middle grey (zone V) suggested by the meter.

Its the same with a white door. If you metered a white door and exposed the film as the meter suggested it would also be middle gray (zone V) in the print. If you wanted the door to print white in the print you would give the door more exposure. e.g If the meter suggested f8/60th you could open up the lens 2 more stops (zone VII) to f4.5/60th. The door would now be exposed on zone VII and would look like a white door in the print.

[rdenney]

With a meter that provides a digital display of the exposure, you have to remember that it is trying to place the scene detail it is measuring on Zone V--middle gray. If you measure something, it will give you an exposure as if you placed it on Zone V, and if you want to place that detail on another Zone, you have to adjust accordingly.

For example, if you really want to place a measured shadow detail on Zone III, the exposure you need will be (V-III=) two stops less than what the meter is telling you. So, if it tells you 1/8 at f/22, then you'll need 1/30 at f/22 to reduce the exposure enough to pull that Zone V measurement to a Zone III exposure.

Likewise, if a bright detail measures at 1/125 at f/22, and you want to place it on Zone VIII, then you'll need to increase the exposure by (VIII - V =) three stops to brighten the scene. That will give you an exposure of 1/15 at f/22.

The shadow detail is needing an exposure of 1/30 at f/22, and the highlight is needing an exposure at 1/15 at f/22, to achieve your desired zone placements. If you expose for the shadow, the highlight will be underexposed by a stop and therefore a bit thin on the negative. So, you increase the development to thicken the highlights up a bit. This is called N+1 development.

If the meter reads 1/250 at f/22 for the detail you want to place on Zone VIII, then setting the exposure to put it on Zone VIII would lead to 1/30 at f/22, which matches the recommended exposure for the shadow. That's the exposure you use and you develop for normal contrast (N development).

If the meter reads the highlight at 1/500 at f/22, then increasing the exposure by three stops (to place that highlight on Zone VIII) will yield an exposure of 1/60 at f/22. If I expose for the shadow (1/30), the highlight will be overexposed by a stop, making it too thick. So, I can shorten the development to reduce the contrast (N-1 development).

In scenes lit by direct bright sun, you'll need N-1 more often than N+1. In flat conditions or in the shade, the reverse may be true. If you scan, it's easier to add contrast than to reduce it. In contrasty scenes, you might need N-2 or even more, and that's not easy by just adjusting development time. That's where some of the developers that achieve much wider subject brightness range are useful, such as compensating and divided development. Or, you can make two exposures, one for the highlight and one for the shadow, and combine them after scanning.

It's easier with meters that use a slide rule calculator--they show the reciprocity relationship graphically and the arithmetic is more obvious. Hence the taped-on Zone scale on the Spotmeter V shown in The Negative. I like that scale and have on on my Spot V. When you read a detail, you place the meter reading (in EV) on the zone where you want to place it, and the resulting exposure is right there. But when I'm using my Minolta Spot F, I have to do the above arithmetic.

With negative film, you are mostly making sure you don't underexpose the shadows--clear film is useless. But too much thickness in the thick parts of the film exceed the scanner's ability to expose through, and those details "block up". So, we expose to make sure we have density we can work with in the shadows, and then adjust the development to control the thickness of the highlights.

Rick "who could read the above into a video camera but not sure that would help" Denney

[Doremus Scudder]

Richard Feynman said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it."

In that spirit, here's my attempt at simplifying things for you:

1. Decide which low value in your scene needs detail. Meter this and place it in Zone III (or IV if you want more luminous shadows) You have the Zone dial on your meter, so simply align the EV meter reading with the Zone III (or IV) step on the scale. Leave the ring there for the rest of the steps. Note: the two dots that appear in the meter display are in 1/3-stop increments, as are the markings on the meter rings. You can use intermediate apertures to get these, but shutter speeds have no intermediate speeds

2. Decide which high value you want to have detail (and how much). Meter this area and see where the reading falls on the scale (which you haven't touched, remember...).

3. If it falls where you want it to be (Zone VII for very detailed, concrete-white areas or Zone VIII for detailed brighter whites), then read the exposure and take the shot. Indicate "Normal" (N) development.

4. If it falls a Zone higher than you want, add 1/2-stop exposure and take the shot; indicate N-1 development. If it falls two Zones higher than you want, add a stop, take the shot and indicate N-2 development. If it falls higher than that, well, you will need to find ways to get N-3, -4... These are trickier, but are only rarely needed. 90% or more of your contractions will be N-1

5. If the high value falls a Zone lower than you want, subtract 1/2 stop, take the shot and indicate N+1 development. Forget N+2 for now, just use higher contrast paper.

The above assumes you have arrived at a personal film speed and have tested development times for N, N-1 (-2, etc.) and N+1. If you haven't, you can guess and see how you do. If your "guesstimated" Normal yields negs with too little contrast, increase development a bit; if too much, decrease. Dial in the exact time as you go.

For N+1 and N-1 you can start with plus and minus 20% of your Normal developing time as starting points. Adjust development time as above if the contrast is not right.

Read some books and online forums over the next few years to refine your understanding and skill.

That should get you going. Have fun.

Doremus Scudder

[D. Bryant]

I would also recommend putting a Zone decal on the lens barrel of the spot meter.

Once you place your shadow reading you can then visually see where light meter values will fall on what zones relative to your placement. It sounds difficult but it's blindingly simple.

Just don't forget though you do have to understand film processing and the media you print on.

Frankly I recommend BTZS if you want simple and visual feed back, but it's not necessary.

Fred Picker made an astute statement at one time, pointing out that for the large majority of out door field work the photographer could place their Z8 reading and expect to get very consistent results for full scale exposures. And that will work a large percentage of the time.

[John Bowen]

Get your hands on a copy of Pickers Zone VI workshop. Excellent examples in the book

[Carlos R Herrera]

Hello, I found a deal on a Asahi Pentax 1 degree digital spot meter (if $250 is a deal). It isn't Zone whatever modified, Fred Picker didn't get his hands on it. Reading some of the responses on the net, that may be a good thing.

Despite the above comment, check out the videos that Picker made 20 years ago, now on DVD. Probably cheaper on Calumet's eBay Outlet store....

http://www.calumetphoto.com/eng/prod...n_1_dvd/ce9940

FP goes into great detail on metering and exposure. Worth every penny, even at full price.

CH

[akfreak]

Thanks Guys, the Quote sums it up. Richard Feynman said, "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it."

You caught me, I was trying to act like I know something. LOL. I have read pages and pages of info. My brain is having as hard time following along with what I think it means. I feel like the information it is on the tip of my tongue but I cant say it right. So I dont understand it.

When I can teach it to someone, meaning I fully understand, I will make the video.

I do know quite a bit, but digital to film transition isn't easy, at least for me anyway. In digital if you even pull out a light meter people start to roll the eyes, it's a spray and pray world for most professionals.

Well not for me, I use light meters. I dial in ratios for main light vs fill, backgrounds, kickers ect.. I hate all of the cussing associated with guessing and with the trail and error method, So I dont.

In the past with film it has been fairly easy, I shoot and sent it out for process and they can fix blown exposures easy in 35mm. When I moved to 120 film and my 645 I started to process my own using HC-110. I was able to make some nice simple B&W prints but simple isn't what I am after. I want to know as much as I can. (OCD for knowledge)

Next I got a deal on my De Vere and started playing with color (temps, timing and fresh chemistry is the name of the game in color, so I have seen).

Now with LF and film and no longer ignorant of what is going on, it seems I have opened a huge a can of worms, it will take me a while to fully understand. Digital understanding takes a few months if you are persistent like I am. Example, when I shot a properly exposed grey card with my (oly) E-1 so many yeas ago and saw the spike dead center of the histogram. I knew then and there how a camera thinks. It thinks 18% grey is the middle value.

Next I tried to fully define what is 18% grey is and I did so with a white piece of paper and a printer. I used the white textureless paper as a reference exposure. I cut the exposure in half (-1 full stop) and getting 50% grey. Again in half (-1 full stop) and getting to 25% grey, now I am 2 stops down, to find 18% grey is was about 1/2 stop or so.

Also now what I have found is 18% grey isn't universally recognized as zone V, so what is it? What zone does 18% grey fall on if it is exposed properly?

I know Zone 3 and 7 are the magic numbers where the first and last signs of texture/detail are shown or lost.

I am having a struggle with Dynamic and tonal ranges. I see +1 EV as a stop, or twice as bright a luminance. That looks good on paper but it doesn't work in the real world. Digital and film are way different in that reguard. It all depends on what sensor or what film you are using to capture an image because not every medium can hold up to exacting values. In digital sensors like with my canon can be tricked to hold more dynamic range by using picture styles (a Cine trick to increase dynamic range)

I am struggling with habits and thoughts formed in a digital workflow that do not jive in a analog world. I am just trying to put it all together and you guys are a huge help.

You guys are wonderful, thanks for holding my hand, I really need it. I found what I think is a helpful website when looking for the Pickers workshop. What I found is THE ULTIMATE EXPOSURE COMPUTER by Fred Parker it has some great insight. I plan to buy the books mentioned on understanding the zone system. Again in digital it is expose to the right (histogram) whee film is expose for shadow's (no clear film from to underexposed).


Two worlds colliding in my brain, when I sort things I will be just fine. Still though if any of you feel energetic, make a video tutorial on the subject. I would love to see you masters teach, I found a video of a man named Bruce Barnbaum who try's to explain it along time ago. I am going to watch it again.

See you guys in a year or two when I can explain it, LOL