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Thread: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

  1. #1
    Land-Scapegrace Heroique's Avatar
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    Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    I’ve never visited Athens – but if I went, I’d love to hike-up the Acropolis w/ my Tachi 4x5, load some favorite b/w film, and shoot the Parthenon in good light.

    However, I’m curious if you think its special architecture might bedevil the unsuspecting LF photographer? I know the clever 5th-century BC architects used plenty of tricks to counter-act unwanted tendencies by the human eye. For example:

    — The columns lean progressively inward (from bottom to top) as you approach the corners.
    — The columns also “swell” (like a cigar’s shape); moreover, the ones toward the end swell more than the ones in the middle.
    — The horizontal course, upon which the columns stand, rises higher in the middle (by several inches) than on the two sides. It’s convex! I understand this counter-acts the eye’s habit of making the middle “sink” or “sag.”

    Makes one curious if the famous structure has any true horizontals or verticals! And if it doesn’t, whether camera movements (or PS) might “create” them w/o too many costly sacrifices, if that’s your photographic aim…

    Or, are these architectural features too subtle to matter for the camera? And if they are, then why did the architects use them to influence the ancient person’s visual experience? Wouldn’t they be clearly apparent on your grid lines?

  2. #2

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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Hmmm. I suspect that on 4x5 the design effects you mention would be too small to show up on the groundglass. Probably on 8x10 too. ULF cameras, who knows? Send me there for two weeks and I'll come back with a definitive answer.

  3. #3
    Land-Scapegrace Heroique's Avatar
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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    We’ll have to send you there for a few shots! I suspect that when you’re under the darkcloth and inspect a neutral camera’s GG, you’ll notice the Parthenon’s architectural “tricks” if they’re not too subtle – that is, verticals and horizontals won’t line-up too easily w/ your grid lines. But then if you come out from under the darkcloth and look again, the tricks will start deceiving you, rendering straight and noble lines for your unaided eye…

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    IanG's Avatar
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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Having been up there you hardly need to use movements at all, bit of rise that's all. Not sure that the columns on any ancient Greek structure lean inwards either unless due to restoration or the effects of earthquakes, It's an optical illusion due to the way the columns taper.

    Not sure if the restoration work has finished but the Parthenon had too much scaffolding and also large cranes everywhere when I was there 2 years ago, so I couldn't shoot images the images that I'd hoped to.

    It was a cold but sunny winters day (Christmas Eve) when I was there and despite the weather it was still busy, almost impossible to get images without people in the shot.

    However there's always alternatives


    The B&W film/print isn't scanned yet.

    Fairly sure I had to work hand held as tripods aren't permitted, which is normal with many Greek archaeological sites. So a field camera is not practical, I took a Crown Graphic to Athens, and a 6x17 camera and faithful Yashicamat

    Another more recent restriction at some Greek sites (last October) is the size of back-pack. At Olympus only very small backpacks were permitted, I would not have got in with my usual backpack which is not large by any standard.

    So you need to plan ahead, be ready to work hand-held

    Ian
    Last edited by IanG; 10-Mar-2011 at 00:03.

  5. #5
    Land-Scapegrace Heroique's Avatar
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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Talk about straight lines, I like those – they remind me of Piranesi and his famous 18th-C etchings of classical architecture…

    BTW, it just occurred to me that if vertical convergence makes tall columns tip “inward,” then why did the Greeks point the Parthenon’s columns inward too? Shouldn’t they point outward to counter-act the convergence? Then it occurred to me that if the eye does cause the horizontal course (along the base of the columns) to sag in the middle, then it must do the same thing to the horizontal entablature along the top of the columns – and this “sagging in the middle” of the entablature (and lift-up of the sides) would make the outer columns seem to point outward indeed...

    Mark, maybe you can add this to your list of your investigations…

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    Director @ Images Argentiques sultanofcognac's Avatar
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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Very good questions and observations Heroique. I used to go to Athens every second month for three years but that was back in the days of using my Agfa Billy (1969 - '73 era) and was too young to take note or even recognise any architectural anōmalia.

    I'd also love to visit again. . . is there a kitty into which you've been pouring money to take some LFers?

    Cheers ~
    Are we truly creative, or simply too lethargic to become pedestrian?

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    IanG's Avatar
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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heroique View Post
    Talk about straight lines, I like those – they remind me of Piranesi and his famous 18th-C etchings of classical architecture…

    BTW, it just occurred to me that if vertical convergence makes tall columns tip “inward,” then why did the Greeks point the Parthenon’s columns inward too? Shouldn’t they point outward to counter-act the convergence? Then it occurred to me that if the eye does cause the horizontal course (along the base of the columns) to sag in the middle, then it must do the same thing to the horizontal entablature along the top of the columns – and this “sagging in the middle” of the entablature (and lift-up of the sides) would make the outer columns seem to point outward indeed...
    It's the quality of the photos you've seen.

    The columns are vertical, the convergence is because very few of the images are shot on view cameras, or have had the verticals corrected, and many shot with wide angles..

    It's a large building you can only shoot it from ground level, and you are limited in how far back you can get as well due to it's position. You'd need a helicopter to shoot anything different

    The slight illusion even when perspective is corrected is because the columns taper, so compare the outer columns on any side and the outer edges of the tops appear (and are) closer than the base, but if you looked at the inner edges it's the other way, they are further apart

    Ian

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    Tim Meisburger's Avatar
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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Hi Ian. You know you are questioning several centuries of architectural canon? Not disputing your observations, but every book I have ever read that mentioned the Parthenon noted how it had been constructed to seem symmetrical when viewed from the ground.

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    IanG's Avatar
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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tim Meisburger View Post
    Hi Ian. You know you are questioning several centuries of architectural canon? Not disputing your observations, but every book I have ever read that mentioned the Parthenon noted how it had been constructed to seem symmetrical when viewed from the ground.

    If you look down the outside (any side) the building appears to lean inwards at the top, but the columns are actually vertical, give or take the ravishes of tome and a few restorations.

    It's about illusion, if you could go inside, not possible due to restoration you'd see that reality is quite different. So I'm not disagreeing with what's been written in the past

    Ian

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    Re: Does the Parthenon frustrate camera movements?

    Access is, I believe, very restricted. In the 60's you could go, jump and crawl almost everywhere to avoid the more obvious restoration/concrete/steel reinforcements to create the right era. Botched earlier restoration and the ravages of time, pollution and Lord Elgin, means that "work in progress" is to be expected.

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