Page 9 of 22 FirstFirst ... 789101119 ... LastLast
Results 81 to 90 of 214

Thread: f64

  1. #81

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Petaluma, CA
    Posts
    2,089

    Re: f64

    Quote Originally Posted by onnect17 View Post
    In publication J-109 titled "KODAK PROFESSIONAL XTOL
    Developer", page 2, second column, 3rd paragraph, it reads:

    Dilution at 1:1 will provide slightly greater film speed,
    enhanced sharpness and shadow detail, and slightly more
    grain
    .
    Yes, I concur with the paragraph you reference. I found it as well. Here:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe.../j109/j109.pdf

    However, in your previous post, you suggested that you use Xtol in a "stock" solution.

    I will also say that manufacturer recommendations have always been just a guide, and not necessarily something I take as truth. Most of the people here, for instance have set their own film speed over the years.

    Lenny

  2. #82
    A.K.A Lucky Bloke ;-)
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Newton, MA, USA
    Posts
    637

    Re: f64

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny Eiger View Post
    Yes, I concur with the paragraph you reference. I found it as well. Here:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe.../j109/j109.pdf

    However, in your previous post, you suggested that you use Xtol in a "stock" solution.

    I will also say that manufacturer recommendations have always been just a guide, and not necessarily something I take as truth. Most of the people here, for instance have set their own film speed over the years.

    Lenny
    Help me here. If I want the smallest grain I should not use the 1:1 dilution. The stock is the one recommended, right?

  3. #83

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Petaluma, CA
    Posts
    2,089

    Re: f64

    Quote Originally Posted by onnect17 View Post
    Help me here. If I want the smallest grain which dilution I should use? Stock right?
    You're right... I'm too tired, I guess I can't read anymore. I think I read what I expected it to say....

    It doesn't make sense. But its also an ascorbic acid thing so maybe its not supposed to make sense. I'd have to test it to really believe it. However, good film speed, sharpness and shadow detail also sound good.

    Lenny

  4. #84
    Scott Brewer
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    179

    Re: f64

    My rule of thumb:

    f22 and be there, 10 minutes early!!

  5. #85

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    5,167

    Re: f64

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny Eiger View Post
    You're right... I'm too tired, I guess I can't read anymore. I think I read what I expected it to say....

    It doesn't make sense. But its also an ascorbic acid thing so maybe its not supposed to make sense. I'd have to test it to really believe it. However, good film speed, sharpness and shadow detail also sound good.

    Lenny
    Lenny,

    Nearly all developers that contain a fair amount of grain solvent (sodium sulfite) give finer grain when used straight (or stock solution). I don't know the exact formula of Mytol but I am fairly certain that it contains quite a bit of sodium sulfite. The same is true of D76. Stock solutions give finer grain but diluted 1:1 or 1:2 you get more grain but also slightly more acutance.

    So finer grain with the stock solution is exactly what we should expect with Xtol (and with D76 and all developers that contain a lot of sodium sulfite). This is Developer Theory 101.

    Sandy
    http://www.sandykingphotography.com/
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at Yahoo.
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...nTransfer/info

  6. #86
    Peter De Smidt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Location
    Fond du Lac, WI, USA
    Posts
    5,362

    Re: f64

    I've found that using stock Xtol does lead to slightly finer grain than using a more dilute version.
    "Why can't we all just get along?" President Dale, Mars Attacks

  7. #87

    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Petaluma, CA
    Posts
    2,089

    Re: f64

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Lenny,

    Nearly all developers that contain a fair amount of grain solvent (sodium sulfite) give finer grain when used straight (or stock solution). I don't know the exact formula of Mytol but I am fairly certain that it contains quite a bit of sodium sulfite. The same is true of D76. Stock solutions give finer grain but diluted 1:1 or 1:2 you get more grain but also slightly more acutance.

    So finer grain with the stock solution is exactly what we should expect with Xtol (and with D76 and all developers that contain a lot of sodium sulfite). This is Developer Theory 101.

    Sandy
    Well, it's a long time since DT 101 and I haven't been teaching for quite some time, so its only what sticks in this brain of mine. However, I do remember that "fine grain" didn't necessarily mean fine grain that way I wanted it to. If it means the grains are smaller, then they are farther apart, resulting in a more grainy look. This was the party line when I was learning this. It seemed duplicitous of the developer companies to state that something was fine grain - which made me think this assumption may not be true, either. What is your take on this...

    I was always interested in a denser grain pattern - imagining that the image would be smoother.

    Lenny

  8. #88
    Drew Wiley
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    SF Bay area, CA
    Posts
    10,592

    Re: f64

    Sandy - I only use conventional developers for lab applications and not general shooting, but I've got to agree about D76 having greater acutance at 1:1 than standard; but I wonder if this is just a function of longer development time and the
    way the grain forms? Certainly edge acutance appears a little better. D76 is something
    I frequently use for a distinct upsweep curve in films like FP4, for what I call an
    upsweep mask in color reproduction. Since this is an unsharp maks in the first place,
    I'm concerned about the grain only if it is capable of appearing gritty in the final
    color print, which it isn't, even in enlargements from 35mm. But that's more a function
    of how it interacts with the dye cloud of the color original. I running some tests this
    week where it must dovetail with black-and-white film interpositives, which might
    give a different practical result. It's a non-issue with the 8x10 format I generally work
    with, since print magnification is so modest, but I still want to know just in case I
    do something analogous someday with small format. A scanner would, of course, see
    things differently, and even the type of anti-newton glass or spray involved seems to contribute to the final effect in high magnifcations.

  9. #89

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    South Carolina
    Posts
    5,167

    Re: f64

    Grain is a bit difficult to get a handle on because sometimes when it is very prominent it is not unpleasant, and at the same time when very it is very smooth it can be aesthetically unpleasing. So I don't really know what to say other than the obvious fact that grain is going to look different depending on whether you wet process (and in that case also dependent on the light source, sensitivity of the paper, and color of the negative if a pyro one) or scan to print digitally. And there is probably a greater variation in grain look with scanning than with analog printing because the difference in scanners and operators will give results that are in the middle of the board, and off the board. I have compared the same negative scanned by me with my Eversmart Pro and by other folks with several different drum scanners and the look of grain is remarkably different.

    Bottom line, you are right to do your own testing with your scanning and printing work flow because it is likely to give results that are specific only to you. Just don't be surprised that others may have totally different opinions based on the reality of their own work flow.

    BTW, you can send me the test film when you like but I will probably not be able to get to it until after February 7 as I am teaching a workshop next week (five straight days) to someone who wants to learn it all, i.e. scanning technique, digital work flow, pt/pd printing and carbon transfer printing.

    Sandy
    http://www.sandykingphotography.com/
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at Yahoo.
    https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/...nTransfer/info

  10. #90
    bob carnie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Toronto, Ontario,
    Posts
    3,984

    Re: f64

    However, I don't think any of this has anything to do with why pyro developers produce sharper negatives. That is due primarily, IMO, to the fact that pyro developers tan the image site and this results in a more precise reduction because there is very little migration of development outside of the image site.

    Several years ago I compared several pyro staining and tanning developers with several traditional non staining developers. In every case the pyro developers produced better resolution by about 15% to 20% compared to the traditional developers. The issue is that you have to go to a fairly high magnification to appreciate the difference

    Sandy
    I agree with these comments completely, the hardening effect containing the migration is most important in the highlights , which allow the shadow detail to come up.
    We have processed thousands of runs of different film and developers and completely agree with Sandy's findings.
    We have switched countless photographers to Pyro due to this tannin effect.

Similar Threads

  1. my experiance w/ f64 backpack
    By Steve M Hostetter in forum Gear
    Replies: 21
    Last Post: 31-Jan-2009, 08:50
  2. Feedback On the f64 Backpacks
    By paul owen in forum Gear
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 30-Jan-2004, 13:18
  3. Shooting all the time at f64
    By Raven Garrow in forum Style & Technique
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 24-May-2000, 20:25

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •