PayPal Incident

[CP Goerz]

Hey Eddie,


I'm aware that there are 'other' payment methods but they all have one thing in common...the buyer can ask for a refund and get it every time for ANY reason even after weeks after receiving the item. Here is the official Ebay rule page on payments, I've abbreviated the part where they take cash and MO's because that is only applicable to cars/business and industrial and a few other sections.


Our Accepted Payments policy helps ensure that buyers and sellers on eBay are offered safe, convenient payment options.

For most categories, sellers need to offer one or more of the following electronic payment choices:
PayPal
ProPay
Moneybookers
Paymate
Credit card or debit card processed through the seller's Internet merchant account
Additionally, payment upon pickup and Bill Me Later are valid payment methods as well.

Payment methods not allowed on eBay:

For most categories, sellers can't ask buyers to:
Send cash through the mail
Send cash or money orders through instant, point-to-point cash transfer services (that are not banks) such as Western Union or MoneyGram
Mail checks or money orders (except for items in categories specifically permitted below)
Pay through bank-to-bank transfers (except for items in categories specifically permitted below)
Pay by "topping off" a seller's prepaid credit or debit card
Pay using online or other payment methods not specifically permitted in this policy.



Scott-Ebay/Paypal will 'withdraw' funds from your linked bank account and the bank will pay them whether you have enough funds to cover the debit or not. In addition you'll have an overdraft fee on top of all the hassle to pay for too. I spoke to a guy at the bank and he said that the agreement we click 'accept' to is iron clad and gives them a LOT of power over your bank account.




As for not selling on Ebay, well I can't sell here because I'm a 'dealer', I think thats one of the rules here. Starting my own webpage?...looked into it and found it totally impractical for the kind of things I sell. I guess its like complaining about gas prices, we all do it but how many of us are going to go out and start drilling for oil and refining it ourselves?

[domaz]

You could only allow them to pay in person in cash, but then they could mug you and take the item. Every transaction carries some sort of risk.

[Brian Ellis]

"Our Accepted Payments policy helps ensure that buyers and sellers on eBay are offered safe, convenient payment options."

Written in plain and realistic English, what they're saying is "Our Accepted Payments policy helps insure that we collect two fees on every transaction."

[jb7]

Am I missing something here?

ok, I don't sell anything, hardly ever, but I buy through ebay, and use paypal.
or I buy through this site, and use paypal.

If I were a shop, I'd be charged a fee per transaction for every credit card payment, it's a cost of trading.

Now, I don't like it, but the alternative is-
Buy nothing- large format gear is largely non-existent here-
or, buy through online stores where the fees are built into the sale price-
imagine going to Badger, or BHP, or Robert Hughes, and having them ask you for +3% for the privilege of buying from them?
or asking you to expose yourself to the chance of zero recourse in the event of a problem, by declaring the payment as a "Gift'?

I think that ebay is more good than bad, though you wouldn't know that by reading the majority of posts here-
fleabay, *bay, whatever- always disparaging, though everyone uses it-
or, if they don't, already has everything they want, or, lives in a town with a Large Format Shop.
I don't have that here, so my options are limited-
and if ebay and paypal didn't exist, then I'd be paying whatever the shops asked for, rather than having the market set a fair price, through the mechanism of an auction.

I sympathize with the OP, I have a Super Ikonta, and wouldn't like it to go missing-
but something like that is in the range where it should be insured, and insured for its full value, not necessarily the final bid price on ebay-

I might need to sell something soon-
if I sell it in the EU, IBAN is an option-
but if it goes further than that, then paypal is a convenient method, with a significant cost that must be built into the price-
it's a service for sellers, and the buyer pays in the end...

Unless you're very careful with your credit card, you often end up paying two fees anyway-

[eddie]

hey CP,

i agree with what you have said above. but the nice thing about a merchant credit card is that it is a bit more difficult for the buyer to make a claim...difficult may be the wrong word here.....with paypal it is basically a one click operation. so the buyer is emotionally upset and moves in that moment, quickly, before they have time to calm down and hear from the seller. maybe the seller could work it out no problem.

so i think the speed at which it can happen creates a bit of a problem. when you make a claim on your credit card they have to call them and explain. sometimes just explaining it out loud is enough to realize how silly the buyer may be acting. also many credit cards want a written statement as to the problem. again giving the buyer another opportunity to calm down and realize that what they were thinking.

the buyer can usually get his money back one way or another. i do not agree how e bay and paypal do not listen to both side fairly. they seem to make rash decisions.

i have no problem taking a return. why not? even if they cheat me out of the shipping. hell, i even got cheated outright....and you know what....that person is an active member here! so it is ind of funny that with all the talk about e bay and paypal and it was a member here. i got over it. burns me up a bit, i hate to loose, but in the end of the day not all that big of a deal. i try and do the best i can, what else can we do?

eddie

[Vlad Soare]

I think eBay and PayPal have a bad reputation among forum members here because we only hear about problems. Nobody starts a thread to say "Wow, I've used eBay and I'm happy about it", or "I've been payed via PayPal and had no problem". It's certainly frustrating to lose money because of a dishonest seller/buyer, or because of a glitch in the system, but I think we should realize that for every person who has a problem there are probably thousands of people who have none. Which is probably why the system keeps going well despite the contempt it's treated with on some forums.

You know, its still possible to walk into a shop and purchase things directly from human beings.

Joe, if you're able to just take a walk, go into a shop, and buy a LF camera or film holder, or any other LF accessory, or even a box of 8x10 Tri-X for that matter, then you're one lucky guy. I'm not that lucky, and nor are thousands of other photographers who don't happen to live in the US (or, for that matter, who happen to live in the US, but not close enough to a big city).

I don't know, but I guess I don't mind a walk down to the WU office when I am out of the country [or the post office when I am in the US], a stop for a cup of coffee, and a little flirting with a salesgirl [and more if I am lucky] when I execute these little transactions.

I would love to do that, too. But for me it's not a walk. It's a one hour's drive back and forth through crazy traffic, during the opening hours of the WU office (which coincide with my own working hours, so I have to leave the office, which is not always possible, let alone convenient). And once I get there, it's not a matter of flirting with a nice salesgirl. It's a matter of staying in line and waiting for my turn, and then dealing with a disagreeable, indifferent and sometimes rude bank employee.
And then there's the cost, too. When I wanted to send 40 dollars I had to pay 53. The WU commission was a third of the actual value of the item! That's because their commissions were not percents of the transferred amount, but fixed rates based on certain thresholds, and 13 dollars happened to be their lowest fixed rate at that time. I found that to be preposterously expensive for a service that offered absolutely no guarantee, no protection, no nothing.

It's easy to say that eBay and PayPal are overrated when you have photo stores full of LF gear around you, a Western Union office within walking range from your home/office, and you can afford to walk, have a coffee, and flirt with salesgirls, instead of being confined to an office all day long. But for those of us who are not as lucky as you are, PayPal is a blessing. And so is eBay, sometimes.

[Vlad Soare]

For example, Fotoimpex-
Adox just dumped 5 boxes of expired [over one-year old and apparently discontinued] 8x10 ortho film on me simply because they knew I was in China and they are in Berlin.

Fotoimpex is a reputable dealer. I refuse to believe that they did it "simply because they knew you were in China". You seem to think that they have deliberately screwed you, which is something I really, REALLY, doubt.
I'm sure it was just an inadvertent mistake, and I'm sure they'll solve the problem to your satisfaction if you give them a chance to.

[Rick A]

It looks as though that the missed point here is in the OP's story. The buyer wanted super-fast overseas delivery, but only wanted to pay for the slow boat to China. The buyer then refused to wait the specified time before invoking the "I didn't get my new toy" rule with PP, allowing him to get the item FREE.

I had quit using PP some time back, and only offered to pay or recieve payment with USPS money orders(or cash). Many vendors on fleecebay were happy to accept, while some responded that they HAD to accept PP only(something to do with contracts and E), so I just didn't do business with them. Recently, I relented and started using PP once again, for my buyers convenience(not mine)as I am trying to sell off a lifetime's collection of darkroom gear. As a seller, I fear PP's rules favoring the buyer, and how it allows deceitful persons to rob honest folks.

There, I've just tossed my two pennies in.

[Michael Graves]

I think eBay and PayPal have a bad reputation among forum members here because we only hear about problems. Nobody starts a thread to say "Wow, I've used eBay and I'm happy about it", or "I've been payed via PayPal and had no problem".

Hear, hear! As another poster so eloquently put it, it isn't the payment method that is dishonest...it is the user (buyer or seller) who uses the rules in their favor to cheat another person. Vlad here is a perfect example of that. A lens he sold me took nearly eight weeks to arrive, through no fault of his. I (like the original poster in this thread) chose not to purchase expedited shipping. Vlad stuck with me the whole way and made sure things worked out for me. Either one of us could have turned that into a messy situation. Neither did and I now have a beautiful lens and he has payment.

Electronic payment is what makes electronic commerce work. Personally, I think that if you aren't willing to accept electronic payments, such as PayPal offers, you should not be selling over the Internet. There is a cost for every convenience. Not accepting electronic payment is telling the customer that you want free advertising and a captive audience, but you want that audience to pick up the slack by making them drive down to the post office to pick up a money order just so you won't be inconvenience. Personally, I think most people who claim they don't use PayPal because of all the horror stories really just don't want to pay the fee.

You should also follow the rules of the electronic payment service provider. In PayPal's Agreement paragraph 4.5 states, "No Surcharges. You agree that you will not impose a surcharge or any other fee for accepting PayPal as a payment method. You may charge a handling fee in connection with the sale of goods or services, as long as the handling fee does not operate as a surcharge and is not higher than the handling fee you charge for non-PayPal transactions." and line 8.1a states, "For Purchase Payments, including Micropayments for Digital Goods, the recipient of the payment will always pay the fee." So don't offer a price "plus paypal fees". Figure that into the price of your item, or as many do figure a shipping/handling price that includes it.

[Vlad Soare]

Thanks for the kind words, Michael. I'm so glad you're happy with the lens.
There's a slight risk involved in any transaction, be it electronic or not. I can understand why avoiding electronic payments and/or international sales might give one a sense of security, though whether that security is real or just psychological is debatable.
Anyway, I have nothing against people refusing to use PayPal themselves, or refusing to ship internationally themselves. It's their choice. But it saddens me a little when they encourage others to do the same, in the name of security.