In another thread Bob McCarthy remarked.
"I'm still seeking the holy grail of ink/printer/paper for max black, max sharp, with a matte ink setup (to avoid overspraying)."
I wonder about this also. Has anyone measured the reflective Dmax with their printer/matte paper to determine the actual maximum black?
Sandy King
For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
[url]https://groups.io/g/carbon
This has been discussed to death and then some in the yahoo groups "Digital B&W the Print", "EpsonWideFormat", and "Piezography3000". Was a seriously hot topic several years ago.Originally Posted by sanking
Bottom line is that pigment inks and matte papers don't give you a great Dmax. Think 1.6 - 1.8 or so (I don't remember any of the details, so do some searching to get the "real scoop"). You can do a lot better with dye-based inks. But they aren't available in the big printers any more, so it's a moot point.
There are some reasons for the rise of glossier papers in the last few years. One of them is improved Dmax.
Bruce Watson
I've noticed some semi mattes that have a non-textured surface that utilize matte inks.
Do any of these change the old dynamic?
Cone requires overspray to use Glossy inks (or GLOP)!
MIS has the Eboni system that is matte black only!
I've bought in to the idea it requires many dilutions of ink to get great highlights.
What fills the gap? Was hoping it was latest matte (semi) paper.
All ears!
bob
I can see where a maximum black would be a holy grail for inkjet prints. Science tells us that the equivalent would be a perfect black body absorber. The principle is that one needs to absorb all of the incident radiation (light) falling on the print. I suppose such a structure could be engineered into the paper but of course then the whole print would look black. Such structure would need to be engineered into the ink and only into the deepest shadow areas. For pigment inks one would need a "deep black" dedicated ink cartridge where the structure of the pigments, after application to the paper, would be such that near total internal reflection would be achieved. Software would be required to control the flow of ink from the dedicated "deep black" cartridge above reflective densities of, say log 1.5. I wonder if some current carbon inks actually have properties of black body absorbers.
I think I remember that a nickel surface oxidized in a particular way produces a black nickel oxide that was nearly a perfect black body absorber due to the orientation of the oxide grains at the surface. Could certain structured, carbon pigments be used to take advantage of near total internal reflection? Or, in fact, nickel oxide particles, or any of a plethora of nanoparticles currently being produced.
Nate Potter, Austin TX.
To my knowledge the highest Dmax with ink on matte papers is from the HP Z printers. 1.8 or so.
Tyler
I got what I thought was a good black on a Hahnemuhle Fine Art Pearl, a semi-gloss paper, by using K2 Matte Black ink. It looked like a deeper black to me than using K2 Photo Black on that Paper. I used a ColorBurst RIP to specify the matte black ink. I did the linearization, made the custom profile, etc.
But, I don't have the means to accurately measure the reflectance. So, the only description I can offer is qualitative.
I've gotten DMax in the 1.6-1.7 range with Epson K3 and Canon Lucia and Lucia Ex. I don't have experience with the HPZ, but have seen others report numbers that agree with Tyler's 1.8 estimate. I've not heard anything about what can be achieved on matte papers with the 3rd-party quadtone/piezotone inksets.
I've come to the conclusion that for images where DMax really matters, matte papers are an exercise in futility. Nothing you can do will allow you to come even remotely close to what can be achieved with photo-black compatible papers. If you really want deep blacks, take a look at the newer generation of fiber-gloss/baryta papers. I've measured DMax values over 2.6, eg L*=2.5 or so. A matte print's blacks will look like dingy gray in a side-by-side comparison.
Jeff Kohn
The Majestic Landscape
I've always liked Dick Arentz's statement to the effect that you don't need a maximum black, you just need a convincing black.
Brian Ellis
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
a mile away and you'll have their shoes.
Agreed. It may have been Minor White who originally said that...
After several years printing on the various new Baryta Glossy papers with an Epson 3800, I've become a convert back to my earlier days of matte printing since trying Hahnemuhle Museum Etching (not a new paper at all). I can not give you a Dmax measurement (though a silhouetted black looks very black to my eye), but I do love the look, texture, and feel that the paper yields for my prints, both color and B&W, and have largely abandoned making prints with the glossy papers. I find my results with Museum Etching to be qualitatively different (better to my taste, obviously) than the results I had previously obtained with a variety of other Hahnemuhle, Museo, and Epson matte papers. Of course YMMV, as might our tastes and goals in printmaking.
May your quest for your holy grail bring you satisfaction as well.
Larry
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