LF Camera delivery HORROR stories!!!

[Dan Smith]

I have been emailing people selling LF camera gear, especially the higher end ge ar, for about 3 years now asking "why is this camera for sale?" The answers are interesting with all the usual reasons one would sell a camera. One catagory tho ugh has me puzzled, frustrated and pissed off. That is the one of "This guy is a pathological liar" to "If I see him I will run over him", to "after waiting two years for the camera I lost interest in the format, bought something else & now it is for sale... unused & new in the box". In following up on some of these I have gotten stories (with info from cancelled checks & credit card billings so I know they are accurate) of cameras ordered, paid or in part or in full, that still take up to or over 2 years from the time the buyer was told "IT IS READY TO SHIP". Then, getting the camera & finding the whole front standard is for a different model. In my survey I found complaints centered around one specific camera maker. Way o ut of proportion to his market share which is larger than his competitors. Funny thing was that his competitors had NO complaints anywhere near what his were. N O complaints of lousy service, just small things and NO complaints of payment ma de & then being shined on with ever increasing delivery times. So, finding out "why people sell LF cameras" has become a compilation of "how on e maker seems to be screwing his customers". Anyone can understand problems coming up and delays in shipping. Any business ca n have a screw up now & then. But to do this in an ongoing manner to so many has to be looked at more carefully. Even if the cameras are really nice, who can af ford to pay for one, know they will wait a specified time because the cameras ar e basically hand made, and then find out that 8 weeks 'really means' 8 to 18 mon ths? If you have faced these problems, how have you handled them? What was done & how long did it take? If you don't feel comfortable naming names, that is fine. If you want to name names but not on an open forum, feel free to email me with spec ifics... I have been in contact with the Attorney General of the State of the ma ker with the most complaints & they say they "are looking into it as others have complained". So, go ahead and say what you will as long as it is accurate & tru e. I understand there are two sides to every story. Ken Hough, of Deardorff restora tion was getting some complaints so I contacted him directly & he has made an at tempt to get the truth out. Enough personal problems to effect his business & th ose who complained are working it out. But a maker who does this over & over & o ver again, using payments for a year or more without delivery of goods... AFTER the promised delivery date? That is a horror story that no one who orders a came ra should ever face & if it is happening maybe we can at least shine some light on the situation & prevent it happening to others. The LF community is a small one and most we know in it are honorable & reputable . But the few who trade on that & abuse the trust are causing problems for more than themselves. NO ONE should have a camera ordered & paid for and have to wait so long after promised delivery time that they lose interest in the format & pu t the camera up for sale simply because looking at it fills them with hate, frus tration & the desire to run over the maker with a truck.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

None of this means anything unless we know who you are referring to.

Kevin

[Natha Congdon]

We are talking about Ron Wisner. Specifically, I believe, with regard to special-order, usually larger, cameras.

I have nothing personal against him, he has never been discourteous in what he has said or in his manner. However, the wait times for his cameras (nearly a year for my 12X20) are SO out of proportion to what is promised (6 weeks, in my case) and the product so frequently unsatisfactory (the Linhof adapter board on mine leaked light, ruining a week's worth of pictures; then the bellows separated from the front standard, ruining another set; the paid-for and long- promised 11X14 reducing back has never been delivered after 18 mo of waiting: I doubt I will ever see it) that many people are understandably upset. I'm no lawyer, but it seems intuitively that fraud is in some ways being committed here. Certainly the shoddiness and broken promises ought to be discussed publicly on forums like this, whether legal recourse is ultimately available or not.

Again, I do not have anything personally against Wisner. I'm against the use of this forum for ad hominem attacks. However, I think that this problem is sufficiently ubiquitous, particularly with regard to the larger special order cameras which are increasingly of interest to readers here, that it deserves a public airing, and, perhaps best for all concerned, a public response from Mr. Wisner. Though of course, that is his choice.

I'm loving the 12X20 format, by the way, and enjoy using the camera now that I think I have most of the bugs worked out. Though I have no particular strong feelings left over about it now, I do not think in all fairness that I have been dealt with by RW in the way I would hope to be treated as a customer, and would be quite unlikely to buy from him again, which is too bad.

Nathan

[Alec Jones]

Old news! If only Fred Picker was around, what stories HE could tell about Ron. We early purchasers of Fred's Classic camera sure heard all this when Fred was trying to get Ron to honor his promises then, something he apparently never did, forcing Fred to make the cameras himself.

It is certainly ironic that two prominent LF individuals, Ron W. and Ken H. find themselves with such negative public relations at the same time.

[lee nadel]

it's to bad it takes alot of good work to trust in some ones reputation but just tell the truth it takes a while to fix a camera don't ask for payment when you still have to wait 18 mos for your deardoff what hurt me the most was the images i did not make waitng for my camera and it is personal .

[Ed Burlew]

I have a Wisner 8x10 and I bought it used and at quite a bargain. It works fine and maybe the guy before me tuned it up. Whatever! I think the point here is that anytime you pay for something in advance the person who gets the money is satisfied and you are not. I have had some good conclusions to EBAY buys and some DISASTERS!!! I have decided to go back to the old way of doing bisiness that goes all the way back to the begining of time and that is "you show me yours and I"ll show you mine". To avoid this you just have to do business face to face and see the actual goods before you buy!! If you buy on EBAY then pay the price that allows for all possible repairs and taht means cheap. Buy a lense and allow for a shutter rebuild. Buy a camera and figure it is broken or misaligned etc.... And do not pay in advance.I often wonder who the foolish vendor on EBAY would be to send the goods in advance of payment? Yet those vendors want us to send the money in advance of inspection and in advance of shipping. Here in Ontario a person(?) was convicted of fraud because he sold a non existent nikon f4 and shipped rocks, five times!!!! I have tried to buy from local dealers(Henrys) EBAY lisiting and wanted to inspect beore payment, I was downstairs and the item was one floor above and they said pay before you see it, yet the other store items we to be insepcted befoe paid for and I was told that was the way of EBAY!! Imagine buying a suit and paying beore trying it on. The EBAY technique o auction and apy nad maybe getting what you paid for is ridiculous and EBAY does not insure anything!!! Well that's my RANT, i thank you for enduring it but frankly we just have to stick to sensible business tactics and not let our dreams and desires run our wallets. Remember there is no"last deal" there is a new deal every day and maybe a better deal tomorrow!

[Nigel Turner]

I've bought items from Ebay with no proplems what so ever. A little bit of trust is however need.

Wisner, and buying things from him (direct) is a lil different. Add at least a year to the times he gives you and you might be nearer the date, and then it might never turn up, (like the 4x5 reducing back for my 8x10 pocket expedition)I got rid of the camera as it was so loose on the front standard that it was a complete and utter joke!

Nuff said.. All I need to do now is change the pic on the bio page!

Thank god for Arca Swiss! www.nigelturnerphotography.com

[Michael Kadillak]

I am a bit confused. Is this the same Dan Smith that recently voiced complete incompatibility with a Wisner 5x7? As a working photographer that has clearly immersed imself in the "tools of his trade" at the various workshops and with other professionals I find it odd that someone as connected to the industry as you would not have discovered your personal distaste for a Wisner (as expressed by your recent posting to avail yourself of the 5x7) only to go down that path with a larger format. Had you no really no indications of the significant delays and lack of customer service with Wisner or are you just venting frustration? Ever from the perimeter it was readily apparent that irrespective of what was bantered around about delivery dates, the overwhelming majority of large format users were was keenly aware of this situation. Gordon Hutchings article about the convertable lenses 5 years ago made no bones about a one to two year delivery time and considerable patience required. As to the apparent lack of quality control, I am dumbfounded. I agree that this is unheard of in a normal business venue. What disturbs me most is the apparent lack of care in insuring that his reputation stays intact. Customer service is the first corporate part to hemmorage and without new customers, (this is a word of mouth business if I ever saw one) his business will detiorate to a point where cash flow versus expenses will not pass the rate of return test for the bank and it will be time to listen to the fat lady sing. Really sad.

My only hope is that Keith Canham writes his Mission Statement in large bold letters and place this banner above the entrance to his shop and read it every day he comes to work as those that forget history are condemmed to repeat it. Look at the post about the demise of Deardorf as there are lessons in business every day.

Hope it all works out for you and you can get back to making photographs very soon. Be Well.

[Stewart Ethier]

My experience is similar to Mr. Congdon's. Ordered a Wisner ULF camera, promised in 6 months, delivered in 10 months, required to pay in full in advance. There were 4 defects in the camera when delivered that Mr. Wisner promised to repair but one year later has not done so. Buyer beware.

[e]

I own my own retail business and it really boils down to this... you either care for your customers or you don't.The best way in my opinion to do business is to be upfront, try your absolute best, and if you cant meet the deadlines that you promise....give the money back, even if it is a loss to the business.People understand and appreaciate honesty in business...maybe being more patient for a unaccounted for delay that can't be helped.