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  1. #1

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    the digital vs film debate

    haven't seen much about this online since the luminous landscape review by charles cramer (former sheet film artist) several years ago between drum scanned 4x5 velvia and 39megapixel digital back.

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/Cramer.shtml

    as a large format film photographer, i'm curious if anyone has read any reviews which are more recent on this topic. i think there are many problems with the luminous landscape review, the biggest issue being a comparison test via the internet where screen resolution is approx 72dpi. not to mention i've been to a gallery with cramer's prints from both digital back and large format film and have to say the digital prints look flat and plasticized compared with the film prints which feel more lively.

    whatever the case, i'd be curious about any thoughts, or more recent online topics or studies, on this matter. my own conclusion is that digital backs produce images akin to the site: www.digitalblasphemy.com :-)

    and of course i have no interest that sort of artificiality.

    cheers. dm

    ps. an interesting fbi research article concluding that the megapixel equivalent of 35mm film is in the ballpark of 16mp:
    http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backis...wgitfield1.htm

  2. #2

    Re: the digital vs film debate

    Here are two long threads and someone will post a picture of a horse soon.

    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...olution+graphs

    You might look at these graphs first

    http://www.largeformatphotography.in...ad.php?t=45186

  3. #3
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Re: the digital vs film debate

    I have a great deal of respect for the technical mastery of Charlers Cramer and am willing to accept his own opinion about his work. You should contact him and tell him what you think about his digital work and see what he says. In the meantime as requested:

    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  4. #4
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: the digital vs film debate

    Anything film vs digital should be predicated by thorough homework involving viewing
    old Three Stooges movies with pie-fights. I don't mind throwing a pie myself from time
    to time, but have to anticipate ducking one in the reverse direction!

  5. #5

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    Re: the digital vs film debate

    Film vs digital belongs in the Lounge.

  6. #6

    Re: the digital vs film debate

    Thanks Kirk. I was looking for that.

  7. #7

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    Re: the digital vs film debate

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Marshall View Post
    Film vs digital belongs in the Lounge.
    Barely. I really wouldn't mind if it joined Religion and Politics. It certainly combines the "best" of both those worlds...

  8. #8
    Daniel Stone's Avatar
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    Re: the digital vs film debate

    I was up in Yosemite last month for a workshop, and went to dinner(at the gracious invite from Jim G.), and while dining, we enjoyed the artwork adorning the walls of the restaurant, many of which were from Charles Cramer.

    While we were there, I was thinking "this looks TOO GOOD to be digital, even P65+(60mp) digital). Upon leaving after enjoying our meal, I asked one of the waiters who was cleaning up if he knew if the work was from digital or not(just a shot in the dark, I know ), but he said that most of it was from film. Many of the shots were 5-10yrs old, or older.

    I'm not one to speculate, but a person like Charles Cramer, who has shot sheet film for years(in 4x5 I know for sure, not sure if in 8x10), but is definitely a "in the know" guy about what can really be extracted from a LF chrome, either via dye-transfer, or drum scanning and output via lightjet.

    But I know that the P45+ and P65+(along with other comparable backs from other manufacturer's) are capable of tremendous detail, and large dynamic range. In 1 shot too. Many of the people here in LA that I've assisted for are constant users of MFD, and they only use such because of the "film-look" vs 35mm digital.

    but in the end, I don't really give a rat's @$$ if a photograph is made via digital or analog means. The vision of the artist is what counts, as I would hope someone viewing my work would see it.

    But you can also argue that shooting MFD with the most whiz-bang equipment, and outputting those large files to a lightjet, or LF inkjet printer, is definitely capable of producing outstanding results. And it can save your back too . Lugging a Master Technika or other LF camera around for hours, or days at a time, can be back-breaking. Carrying a kit of 30gb of memory cards that allows you a few hundred shots can be much lighter than having to cart around holders, changing tent, and other camping supplies(if you backpack away from the car overnight).

    And he ain't a spring chicken anymore age-wise, remember that .

    -Dan

  9. #9

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    Re: the digital vs film debate

    daniel, why do you prefer film for your own work?


    Quote Originally Posted by DanielStone View Post
    I was up in Yosemite last month for a workshop, and went to dinner(at the gracious invite from Jim G.), and while dining, we enjoyed the artwork adorning the walls of the restaurant, many of which were from Charles Cramer.

    While we were there, I was thinking "this looks TOO GOOD to be digital, even P65+(60mp) digital). Upon leaving after enjoying our meal, I asked one of the waiters who was cleaning up if he knew if the work was from digital or not(just a shot in the dark, I know ), but he said that most of it was from film. Many of the shots were 5-10yrs old, or older.

    I'm not one to speculate, but a person like Charles Cramer, who has shot sheet film for years(in 4x5 I know for sure, not sure if in 8x10), but is definitely a "in the know" guy about what can really be extracted from a LF chrome, either via dye-transfer, or drum scanning and output via lightjet.

    But I know that the P45+ and P65+(along with other comparable backs from other manufacturer's) are capable of tremendous detail, and large dynamic range. In 1 shot too. Many of the people here in LA that I've assisted for are constant users of MFD, and they only use such because of the "film-look" vs 35mm digital.

    but in the end, I don't really give a rat's @$$ if a photograph is made via digital or analog means. The vision of the artist is what counts, as I would hope someone viewing my work would see it.

    But you can also argue that shooting MFD with the most whiz-bang equipment, and outputting those large files to a lightjet, or LF inkjet printer, is definitely capable of producing outstanding results. And it can save your back too . Lugging a Master Technika or other LF camera around for hours, or days at a time, can be back-breaking. Carrying a kit of 30gb of memory cards that allows you a few hundred shots can be much lighter than having to cart around holders, changing tent, and other camping supplies(if you backpack away from the car overnight).

    And he ain't a spring chicken anymore age-wise, remember that .

    -Dan

  10. #10
    Daniel Stone's Avatar
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    Re: the digital vs film debate

    Quote Originally Posted by don mills View Post
    daniel, why do you prefer film for your own work?
    Don,

    I just like the process. And also, I can afford to shoot film, even 8x10(just barely ). I can't see myself spending $40k on a digital back RIGHT NOW. I'm a photo major(I'm 22, and in school right now), so down the road(since commercial work is my eventual goal) I'll probably need to invest in a back. But for now, shooting film gives me something that I just can't get out of digital.

    IDK, maybe I'm just paranoid, and even having grown up with computers, and being quite proficient at using them(along with PS), I hate sitting at them for extended periods of time. And personally, I'd rather be making photographs than reviewing the screen on the back of the camera.

    there are plug-ins for plug-ins for digital to mimic the "film look", but I just have to ask "why not shoot film for the "film look"?"

    In the end, I find that having an idea for a photograph, and then choosing the right materials to empower that vision to the final print is what keeps me coming back to film every time.

    and you get a hard copy every time , those negs/chromes are a nice backup to scans and easily lost computer files.

    -Dan

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