4x5 & possible 8x10 suggestions for rock-solid monorail with geared movements

[tgtaylor]

Dan,

The Robos has both axial and base movements. The axial tilts, which is most commonly used, are geared. The base tilt is by hand. Toyo recommends that you first apply axial tilts which "...should cover most ordinary work and the base tilt is further provided for use with the axis tilt for more critical operations." Swing is not geared.

[rdenney]

looking at the Sinar P, it seems very nice, but a few things worry me. It has a round focusing rail, which would prevent me from taping on a mm scale for measuring focus-difference between furthest and closest point I want in focus (I use this for setting aperture). But I see what looks like an f-stop indicator on the knob, is that right?

The Sinar includes a scale on the knobs that turn, providing an accurate means of determining depth of field. A scale on the monorail isn't necessary. The round monorail has other advantages, though, including the ability to level the camera laterally using the very simple and extremely strong Sinar tilt-head.

The other issue would be that it seems to do tilts in a complex way, not revolving around the nodal point of the lens or ground glass (this is what my Linhof does, tilts and swings around the midpoint). OTOH, when I look at the animation on this page, it looks like it is maybe still tilting it about the nodal point and avoiding yaw? But that's for the P2.I like the tilts and swings to revolve around the midpoint of the lens or ground-glass, in the sense that the midpoint remains the same distance from the lens or film.

You can tilt either by loosening the lower bearer (below the rail) and tilting around it, which is a yaw-free base tilt. Or, you can use the tilt at the top of the bearer, which is geared on a circular track that moves the standard about the lens's presumed nodal point (this requires accurate lens mounting, of course). The P and P2 are the same in this regard.

A few other questions: How long is the monorail?

As long as you need it to be. The Sinar rails (going back to the 1948 Norma) are extensible and interchangeable. The base rail is 12", but can be extended. The extensions come in 6, 10, 12, and 18-inch lengths, and as many as you need can be added to each end of the base rail. I have seen pictures of people who have extended the rail to three or four feet, and mounted it on two tripods, using several intermediate "multipurpose standards" to marry several sets of bellows. For my Sinar F, I use the 12" rail plus one 6" extension for portability, and that gets me down to about 1:4 with a 12" lens. I could add a couple of 12" extensions (or 4 6" extensions) and focus a 24" lens easily, even for 1:2 portraits. The rails attach to one another very rigidly without requiring tools. This is the most modular rail system in large format, in my view. I REALLY LIKE being able to use it with very short lenses without stabbing myself in the chest or including the end of the rail in the picture, but I can spend less than one minute and change the camera from a 47mm lens to a 12" lens.

And how transportable is it? I've been putting my Linhof Kardan Supercolor in my trunk upside down, on the bars that accomodate rise. It's perfectly fine like this. It looks like the Sinar P is substantially taller than the Kardn Supercolor, so I'm wondering if it'll be as transportable as the Linhof Kardan Supercolor.

If you want geared movements, you will need more space. Compare a Sinar P with a Sinar F, which does not have geared movements (except fine focus), and you'll see the difference. The Sinar may extend below the bar, but it it doesn't extend as high above the bar or as wide as a camera that uses U-frames to support the boards. You can rest the camera on the tops of the frames if you want, but a case that hangs the camera on the rail is also easy.

PS: Is the back of the Sinar P1 interchangeable? The link to the Sinar P2 I posted says the P2 can be switched between 4x5 and 8x10. What about the "P" or "P1" (however it is called).

Everything on Sinars is interchangeable. You can put couple a P2 back with a P1 front, or a P back with an F front or an F2 front, etc. Format changing kits are easy, usually requiring only the larger back and a bellows. All Sinar fronts are basically the same, except for a few that are intended for 4x5 only that don't rise as much (these are F's only). But even those will rise enough for 8x10, they'll just limit further rise somewhat.

The Sinar P isn't the only option, of course. But I don't think you'll find it bulkier or heavier than other rail cameras with fully geared movements. And it will have the manufacturing quality you are accustomed to with Linhof. Sinar, Arca-Swiss, and Linhof establish the upper tier for monorail view cameras, and Sinar sets the standard among these for modularity. The Toyo Robos is also a good option, but no less bulky. All of these are intended for demanding professional use.

Depending on when you visited him, Frank Petronio might have had his current Sinar Norma. The Normal is an older model, beautifully made, but not fully interchangeable with the P and F series. Most items are the same--rails, boards, and bellows, for example, but the Norma used U-frames like your Kardan and did not have yaw-free tilts.

Rick "thinking the requirement for rock-solid geared movements imposes consequences" Denney

[dh003i]

I "fixed" my Linhof! Peaking into he film-loading area, on the bottom side, some of the felt padding the metal from the part that is spring-loaded had come off, and it was rolling over itself, making a bulge! Hence, the side that was solid was actually out of place, and the other side was "pushing back" to its proper place. I'll need to find a way to superglue the velvet into place (why is it padded with velvet, instead of having a slightly deeper metal?)

[dh003i]

Given that I fixed my Linhof, I may stay with it for a while -- it really is very nice all things considered. And it already weighs 9 pounds (with a 305/9 lens onboard). But I'll keep the Sinar P in mind as a great step-up option, especially if I want an easy gateway to the 8x10 world.

The Sinar includes a scale on the knobs that turn, providing an accurate means of determining depth of field. A scale on the monorail isn't necessary. The round monorail has other advantages, though, including the ability to level the camera laterally using the very simple and extremely strong Sinar tilt-head.

Yea, the scales on the knob are indeed very nice.

You can tilt either by loosening the lower bearer (below the rail) and tilting around it, which is a yaw-free base tilt. Or, you can use the tilt at the top of the bearer, which is geared on a circular track that moves the standard about the lens's presumed nodal point (this requires accurate lens mounting, of course). The P and P2 are the same in this regard.

Great!

[The rail is] As long as you need it to be. The Sinar rails (going back to the 1948 Norma) are extensible and interchangeable. The base rail is 12", but can be extended. The extensions come in 6, 10, 12, and 18-inch lengths, and as many as you need can be added to each end of the base rail. I have seen pictures of people who have extended the rail to three or four feet, and mounted it on two tripods, using several intermediate "multipurpose standards" to marry several sets of bellows. For my Sinar F, I use the 12" rail plus one 6" extension for portability, and that gets me down to about 1:4 with a 12" lens. I could add a couple of 12" extensions (or 4 6" extensions) and focus a 24" lens easily, even for 1:2 portraits. The rails attach to one another very rigidly without requiring tools. This is the most modular rail system in large format, in my view. I REALLY LIKE being able to use it with very short lenses without stabbing myself in the chest or including the end of the rail in the picture, but I can spend less than one minute and change the camera from a 47mm lens to a 12" lens.

That sounds very nice. That's another inconvenience I forgot to mention with my Linhof. I need to make sure the front standard is close enough to the end when using a 90mm, which means he rear standard is further in, hence poking one's self in the chest, or looking at it kind of sideways.

If you want geared movements, you will need more space. Compare a Sinar P with a Sinar F, which does not have geared movements (except fine focus), and you'll see the difference. The Sinar may extend below the bar, but it it doesn't extend as high above the bar or as wide as a camera that uses U-frames to support the boards. You can rest the camera on the tops of the frames if you want, but a case that hangs the camera on the rail is also easy.

Are these cases readily available? That's my only other issue with the Linhof -- no case! And it'd be nice to have some way of lugging it around that is easier than carrying it on he tripod, on my shoulder.

Everything on Sinars is interchangeable. You can put couple a P2 back with a P1 front, or a P back with an F front or an F2 front, etc. Format changing kits are easy, usually requiring only the larger back and a bellows. All Sinar fronts are basically the same, except for a few that are intended for 4x5 only that don't rise as much (these are F's only). But even those will rise enough for 8x10, they'll just limit further rise somewhat.

The Sinar P isn't the only option, of course. But I don't think you'll find it bulkier or heavier than other rail cameras with fully geared movements. And it will have the manufacturing quality you are accustomed to with Linhof. Sinar, Arca-Swiss, and Linhof establish the upper tier for monorail view cameras, and Sinar sets the standard among these for modularity. The Toyo Robos is also a good option, but no less bulky. All of these are intended for demanding professional use.

Depending on when you visited him, Frank Petronio might have had his current Sinar Norma. The Normal is an older model, beautifully made, but not fully interchangeable with the P and F series. Most items are the same--rails, boards, and bellows, for example, but the Norma used U-frames like your Kardan and did not have yaw-free tilts.

Well, the Sinar P definitely seems like a really nice upgrade option; I'll just need to figure out if I want to keep my Linhof. Now that it's fixed, the Kardan really does have its advantages for me. It's rock-solid, I already ve it (I guestimate I could sell it for ~$400, so the Sinar P would cost me $200 net, assuming it goes for $600 on eBay, which it seems like one of the auctions will end at). I'm gonna see if I can jerry-rig it a little bit, try to attach some kind of lever to get more leverage when controlling the tilts. The biggest issue is the fairly strong & rough "auto-lock"/snap near the 0 degree position (up to +/- 2 degrees). The force required to unhinge it from there can sometimes result in me banging my fingers, and then to accurately position it within the -2 to 0, or 0 to 2 degree marks is difficult.

It just occured to me that doing such might be easier if I raise both the front and rear rise as high as they can go, so the stnadards are about 3 inches higher, hence with 3 inches of "finger room" beneath the standards for easier manipulation.

It just occurred to me when fiddling with the swings -- which do have a 0-position snap-to, but it is a smooth one, very easy to precisely over-ride -- that maybe my tilt mechanism is a little bit rusty or something? Repositioning the swings is very easy and much more precise, but the tilts are kind of coarse, sticky within 2 degrees of the 0-degree position, tough to precisely position between 0 and 2 (or 0 and -2) degrees.

Rick "thinking the requirement for rock-solid geared movements imposes consequences" Denney

haha, I like your sigs

[dh003i]

Here's a pic of what was wrong with my Linhof (technically still wrong, but not causing a problem with the GG moving around).

The velvet on the left upper right side of the pic was peeling off, causing a bulge. So I'll need to superglue it back on or something. Also, one entire piece of velvet cloth is missing altogether! I wonder what effect this has?

Attachment 40920

[tgtaylor]

I never compared the Sinar P with the Robos, but considering that the Robos went out of production around 1998 it compares very well indeed with the newer P2 - even exceeding it in some cases:




Technical Data
Sinar p2 4x5"
•Item number: 491.76.000
•Camera format: 4x5"
•Convertable to: 5x7", 8x10" and Sinar p3
•Adjustment ranges:
•Vertical shifts: -4cm to +4cm
•Horizontal shifts: Left 3cm to Right 5cm
•Coarse tilt: ±45°
•Fine tilt: ±19°
•Swing: ±50°
•Fine focus: 5 cm
•Bellows extensions with Multipurpose Bellows: 4 bis 45 cm
•Weight: 5.9 kg

[Richard M. Coda]

Arca-Swiss. Period.

[tgtaylor]

Great camera the Arca Swiss but there again the Robos compares favorably with it and even exceeds it in some specifications:
http://www.precisioncameraworks.com/Media/Syst.pdf

Curiously Arca is more reticent in listing its specifications than Sinar. Toyo, on the other hand, set its specs right out.

[jeroldharter]

For the criteria you listed, Arca Swiss is a winner but not cheap. There are some excellent deals out there for used 4x5 F-Line cameras. I have an F-Line metric with the micrometric orbix and it is a precision gem. An 8x10 version would be great but more than my budget allows right now and a bit more camera in that format than I need.