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Thread: pyro developer, but which?

  1. #111
    A.K.A Lucky Bloke ;-)
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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Armando,

    For what film (s) would you like the data?

    Sandy
    Sandy,
    I'll use t-max 100 (tmx) in 35mm.
    Thanks,
    Armando

  2. #112

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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Sandy,

    In the past, I've written things I regret, and I've apologized for it. Nothing I've written here since then has been disrespectful, but I feel honesty is important, and I believe we're all entitled to rebuttal when we're made the object of personal attacks in a public forum. I've apologized to the other posters in this thread for my part in this unfortunate turn, but I don't owe you any apologies. I've been respectful in my posts and have honestly stated my position to the best of my ability. Reasonable people can navigate the conventions of opinion without the irksome necessity of qualifying every statement, and who doesn't use selective information to make a point?

    My opinion of the relative merits of pyro vs catechol are more nuanced than your own, as I've tried to elaborate in this thread. I don't believe either is categorically better than the other, and I don't see how you could have inferred that, unless you read very selectively, and with a strong bias.

    Lastly, I'm not surprised no one challenged you on the subject of staining developers in my absence, and so I'm not surprised there have been no confrontations. This thread illustrates that dynamic perfectly, and anyone can read it for themselves. In the final analysis, all I did was to make statements in a respectful and honest manner with which you disagree, and for that you attacked me. I can live with that, but let's not pretend it is otherwise.

    Be well, safe travels, and merry Christmas,

    Jay

  3. #113
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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Jay,
    I'm not in the business of rating any film nor creating any film championship or declare any a winner. I was just offering my feedback.
    There is not magic film developer, but we can find the pros and cons of each one and use them to our advantage.
    Not rush, when you’re back at home send me anything you have about 510-pyro, including any notes and recommendations related to development. I’ll appreciate it. And remember, any of my observations are just that. I’m not planning to go back and question any of your statements regarding the developer.
    And happy holidays to you too!
    Regards,
    Armando

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay DeFehr View Post
    Armando,

    I'm not trying to be coy, or evasive. It really is painfully demanding to generate credible data comparing developers in a home darkroom. Even if you were to generate data for grain (are you going to do an RMS granularity test, or just a subjective evaluation?), sharpness (do you have a microdensitometer, or will you evaluate subjectively?), stain (color densitometer?) and film speed (Sensitometer?), there's no way to quantify arguably the most important characteristic; gradation. My point is, no matter what numbers you come up with, someone will find a problem with your methods or your experimental design anyway, and you'll be left with a subjective evaluation. For my part, I don't care one way or the other if you test, or not, or which developer you prefer. I formulated 510-Pyro for my own use, and I've been very happy with it. If you like it too, enjoy. If you'd rather use something else, enjoy. I mean that very sincerely. I do this for fun and nothing more, and I'm not eager to get into another nasty confrontation over something as unimportant as a film developer. If I had data for TMX at hand, I'd happily share it, but I'm at work in Alaska at the moment, and don't have access to that data. Best of luck, and happy holidays.

  4. #114
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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Sandy and Jay,
    With sadness I’m seeing your guys going after each other like children, so please stop being confrontational. The members of this forum deserve more than that, especially when both can help so much with your experiences. Life is a lot bigger than a film developer formula.
    I hope your guys put the ego aside and continue to help.
    Happy holidays to both and take a lot of pictures!
    Regards,
    Armando

  5. #115

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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Quote Originally Posted by onnect17 View Post
    Sandy,
    I'll use t-max 100 (tmx) in 35mm.
    Thanks,
    Armando
    Armando,

    Assuming you want to develop your Tmax-100 film to an DR of about 1.35 I would recommend for 510 Pyro about ten minutes of development at 72F with the 1:100 dilution, with continuous agitation in tubes or drum.

    Ironically I don't have any good data on Tmax-100 in Pyrocat-HD, but I think you will come close to the same DR with 12 minutes at 72F with the 1+1+100 dilution.

    That said, I don't believe you will get best results with either of these developers with rotary development because acutance will be lower than with intermittent and minimal agitation, for sure with Pyrocat. On the other hand, if you plan to scan to evaluate the negatives acutance probably won't matter all that much anyway.

    I agree with Jay that making meaningful comparisons of developers is very complicated. At one point in time I considered making an exhaustive study of several traditional developers verus several pyro staining developers but abandoned the project for two reasons, 1) it was too complex and would have taken up tons of time to do right, and 2) in the end the study would have served no useful purpose and would most likely have created more arguments and controversy and solved nothing.

    On the other hand, individual comparisons of the type you propose are interesting because they offer objectivity. So I kind of see it like this, I prefer real good wine, but sometimes any wine is better than no wine at all.

    Sandy
    For discussion and information about carbon transfer please visit the carbon group at groups.io
    [url]https://groups.io/g/carbon

  6. #116

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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Armando,

    I agree completely. I don't think film developers are very important, but I think public civility, and decency are. It has nothing to do with ego, and I resent your suggestion that it's childish to expect courtesy. As I've said, I don't care which developer anyone uses, or even that anyone agrees with me in general, or on any specific point, but I do expect common courtesy. I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread my thoughts on the importance of developer choice (not very important), and I have not argued that one developing agent is better than another, just that there are differences. I've done my best to be clear and concise in describing these differences. The OP asked our opinions about the best staining developers, and I offered mine, with qualifications. Why should any of this offend anyone?

    Regarding your proposed test, it came at a point in the thread that made it seem as if you were offering to be an independent arbiter to settle the disagreement between Sandy and me. I simply meant to say that's not necessary, because Sandy and I are both more familiar with these developers than you could possibly be after your test, no matter how well executed, and more importantly, because there's no objective value to a subjective test, except to the tester. But, if you prefer any wine to no wine, you can look at John Finch's comparison of 510-Pyro and Pyrocat HD in The Art Of Black And White Developing. I contributed to that test in no way. Finch concluded that 510-Pyro was both sharper and finer grained than Pyrocat HD, a claim I've never made. So, even if your test showed the opposite result, it would become a debate about testing itself, and not about the developers. The whole idea of an independent tester is rather absurd, for all these reasons. I suggest you stick with Pyrocat HD, since it gives you satisfying results, and don't waste your time with pointless testing.

    Merry Christmas!

  7. #117
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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jay DeFehr View Post
    Armando,

    I agree completely. I don't think film developers are very important, but I think public civility, and decency are. It has nothing to do with ego, and I resent your suggestion that it's childish to expect courtesy. As I've said, I don't care which developer anyone uses, or even that anyone agrees with me in general, or on any specific point, but I do expect common courtesy. I've stated repeatedly throughout this thread my thoughts on the importance of developer choice (not very important), and I have not argued that one developing agent is better than another, just that there are differences. I've done my best to be clear and concise in describing these differences. The OP asked our opinions about the best staining developers, and I offered mine, with qualifications. Why should any of this offend anyone?

    Regarding your proposed test, it came at a point in the thread that made it seem as if you were offering to be an independent arbiter to settle the disagreement between Sandy and me. I simply meant to say that's not necessary, because Sandy and I are both more familiar with these developers than you could possibly be after your test, no matter how well executed, and more importantly, because there's no objective value to a subjective test, except to the tester. But, if you prefer any wine to no wine, you can look at John Finch's comparison of 510-Pyro and Pyrocat HD in The Art Of Black And White Developing. I contributed to that test in no way. Finch concluded that 510-Pyro was both sharper and finer grained than Pyrocat HD, a claim I've never made. So, even if your test showed the opposite result, it would become a debate about testing itself, and not about the developers. The whole idea of an independent tester is rather absurd, for all these reasons. I suggest you stick with Pyrocat HD, since it gives you satisfying results, and don't waste your time with pointless testing.

    Merry Christmas!
    Jay,
    Don't take it personal, I was just trying to make a point how easy we can get out of focus in dialogs as imperfect humans, me in first place. But let's move on, I definetily will look for John's Finch writing.
    Looking for the next developer is not such a bad thing. After all that's why I heard of pyrocat and 510-pyro.
    And Merry Christmas to you too, and Julie. I hope she's does not bitch like my wife about how much time I spend with the "photography stuff"
    Regards,
    Armando

  8. #118
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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Quote Originally Posted by sanking View Post
    Armando,

    Assuming you want to develop your Tmax-100 film to an DR of about 1.35 I would recommend for 510 Pyro about ten minutes of development at 72F with the 1:100 dilution, with continuous agitation in tubes or drum.

    Ironically I don't have any good data on Tmax-100 in Pyrocat-HD, but I think you will come close to the same DR with 12 minutes at 72F with the 1+1+100 dilution.

    That said, I don't believe you will get best results with either of these developers with rotary development because acutance will be lower than with intermittent and minimal agitation, for sure with Pyrocat. On the other hand, if you plan to scan to evaluate the negatives acutance probably won't matter all that much anyway.

    I agree with Jay that making meaningful comparisons of developers is very complicated. At one point in time I considered making an exhaustive study of several traditional developers verus several pyro staining developers but abandoned the project for two reasons, 1) it was too complex and would have taken up tons of time to do right, and 2) in the end the study would have served no useful purpose and would most likely have created more arguments and controversy and solved nothing.

    On the other hand, individual comparisons of the type you propose are interesting because they offer objectivity. So I kind of see it like this, I prefer real good wine, but sometimes any wine is better than no wine at all.

    Sandy
    Sandy,
    Thanks for numbers, I'm running to where the inlaws right now. But tonight I will get with some questions.
    Merry Christmas!
    Armando.

  9. #119
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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Hey guys,

    "peace on earth and good will toward man"

    Why don't y'all go to a neutral corner and cool off. At least until the rest of us have had an opportunity to enjoy the "comfort and joy" of the Christmas holiday.

    Thank you for your kind consideration.

  10. #120

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    Re: pyro developer, but which?

    Quote Originally Posted by onnect17 View Post
    Jay,
    Don't take it personal, I was just trying to make a point how easy we can get out of focus in dialogs as imperfect humans, me in first place. But let's move on, I definetily will look for John's Finch writing.
    Looking for the next developer is not such a bad thing. After all that's why I heard of pyrocat and 510-pyro.
    And Merry Christmas to you too, and Julie. I hope she's does not bitch like my wife about how much time I spend with the "photography stuff"
    Regards,
    Armando
    Well said, Armando, and point taken.

    Julia is a tireless advocate of my photography, and film photography in general, and I can't work enough for her. She has no interest in digital photography, and would join the film hoarders if I would.

    Merry Christmas to you and your Mrs.!

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