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Thread: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

  1. #1
    cyberjunkie's Avatar
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    Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    I just purchased my first DSRL body, a Pentax K10D. My renewed interest on photography made me review all the photographic stuff i own, deciding which item are still of some interest and which could be sold - my budget is much more limited now, than what used to be:-(
    Unfortunately going digital with MF and LF involves the purchase of a decent flatbed scanner, it looks like any choice below an Epson 4990 would be a disappointment.
    Unfortunately those (or better quality) scanners are still quite expensive, so i am forced to part with some photographic equipments i own.
    One of the fields where i have no great interest, nor the needed place at home, is the darkroom. Apart from the "portable darkroom" that is needed to place sheet films on the chassis , ehm... film holders, and for the Jobo drum (if only i could find where i stored it...) that could be still used to develop some B&W films (up to 4x5" format), all the remaining stuff must be either sold or even given away for free! I am thinking about three large format vertical tanks, that can be used to develop at once a lot of sheet films. They are HUGE, and are still in the basement of a friend, who's impatiently waiting the day when those "things" would go away!
    Back to the serious stuff now.
    I own some enlarging lenses, from a 28mm Componon to a 100mm one, and i would like to know if it could be worth to find a shutter, and test them for macro work, or maybe it would be better to keep them for the bellows of a DSRL or a 6x7 film camera.
    Please give me the a link, or at least some basic infos, about the ratio they are optimized for, and which would be the coverage at those image to film ratios.
    The lenses are:
    Componon T 4/50
    Componon 4/28
    Componon-S 5.6/100

    I love old lenses, and i still have at home other enlarging lenses, the longer focal is a not-so-noble Componar f4.5 10.5cm.
    The lens is quite old, the barrel is "silver", and as far as i remember there are no clicks for the iris values. The focal length should be good for moderate macros, better if used with a 6x7 or 6x9 film backs, with moderate bellows extension.
    The lens comes fitted to a flange, with three mounting holes. The thread on the lens itself is a strange 38,4mm, not 39mm, and the thread is very thin, unlike the classic LTM.
    In the end, if the performance of the lens is at least decent, it would be nice to look for a cheap shutter, and have an adapter ring machined to front-mount the lens to the shutter.
    If the expected performance isn't worth all the fuss, i'd be happy to get at least some infos about it.
    I don't know if it's a triplet, or it's already a tessar-type, optimized for short distances.
    Is there anybody with the right answer?

    I must say one thing, though, i have just purchased on the bay a small suitcase with Tominon/Polaroid MP-4 lenses and tubes. The two missing items where the shutter, and the 17mm lens. Within a short time i could find the shutter (Polaroid branded Compur with 40.5mm front thread for all the lenses), and probably i will get soon the missing lens, the f4 17mm.
    If, or when, i will own the complete kit, my need for close-up to micro photography should be covered. The lenses range from 17mm to 135mm, all with f4 aperture, and all are front-mounted on a Compur 0. From what i have read online, the Tominons used as taking lenses are mounted the conventional way, part in front and part behind the leaf shutter (i know of a 117mm and of a 135mm), while these repro lenses are all front mounted.
    I could make no test myself, as the shutter came in very poor conditions, stuck or greatly slowed at all the slow speeds, so i sent it immediately for a CLA.
    I would be very grateful if somebody wants to share his knowledge about the Tominons. We know very little about them here in Europe, because the Polaroid MP-3 and MP-4 were mostly used across the Atlantic.
    So all my (rather small) knowledge comes from the Web, and i've never seen a reference on how they perform if pitted against good enlarger lenses.
    AFAIK they are all reversed Tessars, but one (probably the 50mm, that should have a 6-elements design). I have read some posts where the Tominons were called "good", and found an interesting scheme from the original documentation about the optimal film to subject ratio for each of the lenses.
    Should i stick with the Polaroid lenses, or give also a try to the enlarging lenses, older and newer?
    I love to compare the result of old lenses, but if the mentioned enlarging lenses would only be a duplicate for the Tominons, i could save the money for a couple of old shutters, and for the work of a photo mechanic, for something better.

    I am open to any advice, and i will postpone to future postings all the other questions i have in mind :-)
    Just a very small one:
    does anybody know what's the coverage of a Sekor 75mm wide angle for the Mamiya Super 23/Universal?
    The example i own looks very recent, as new, unlike the battered Universal body (with foldable normal lens) i bought the lens for.
    Just in case there were more than one versions of the same lens....

    have fun

    CJ

  2. #2

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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    The Tominons offer good value, reasonable performance. I've had all of the MP-4 Tominons except the 105/4.5. All but the 135/4.5 were made to be used above 1:1 and all are designed to be used mounted in front of a #1 shutter. The 135/4.5 was sold as a "general purpose lens" to be used at all distances. Recommended range of magnifications for each lens turns out to be the range of magnifications it will deliver on a standard (not XL) MP-4.

    If you're going to use your Tominons in front of a shutter, you want an MP-4 #1 shutter. This for two reasons. It has an open shutter lever, so doesn't have to be set to "T" for viewing and then to some other speed for shooting. It has no diaphragm, so isn't very useful and is therefore usually the least expensive #1 shutter to be found. Easily recognized, says "Polaroid MP-4" on the face plate.

    Construction? Per Polaroid's data sheets: 17/4, 6/4 double Gauss; 35/4.5, 75/4.5, reversed Tessar; 105/4.5, 135/4.5 tessar; 50/4.5 "six-element symmetrical triplet".

    Per Schneider, Componons are optimized for 8x - 12x enlargements (that would 1:8 - 1:12 taking, facing normally, and 8:1 - 12:1 reversed). Comparons for 2x - 6x. For most closeup/macro situations a Comparon would be a better bet; I've used a 105/4.5 Comparon as a macro len, its OK and there are better lenses.

    The MP-4 Tominons aren't the best macro lenses around. Zeiss Luminars (BRD) and Mikrotars (DDR), Leitz Photars, Reichert Neupolars all beat them by a lot. I've never tried a Milar, have tried one Summar, the 25/2.8 for the YELUU projection microscope attachment for some Prado projectors. It is superb above 10:1. But MP-4 Tominons are usable and usually much less expensive than better lenses.

    Good luck, have fun, buy a copy of Lester Lefkowitz' book The Manual of Closeup Photography,

    Dan

  3. #3

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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    i have a reversed 210 componon on my 10x8 hobo box camera and its ok, not brutally sharp , nice contrast im happy with it and it covers, just

    Attachment 39891

  4. #4
    cyberjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post

    Per Schneider, Componons are optimized for 8x - 12x enlargements (that would 1:8 - 1:12 taking, facing normally, and 8:1 - 12:1 reversed). Comparons for 2x - 6x. For most closeup/macro situations a Comparon would be a better bet; I've used a 105/4.5 Comparon as a macro len, its OK and there are better lenses.

    Dan
    Thanks for the infos about the Tominons, and about Shneider enlarging lenses.
    For the Tominons i have already got the Polaroid/Compur #1, that came with an extra 135mm lens.
    For the Componons, as son as possible i will try them the usual way, and reversed.
    From which reproduction ratio should i start to use the lenses reversed?
    In the past i have experimented a little with reversed lenses, namely:
    - a Volna 80mm from a Kiev 60 fitted on an original Pentacon Six bellows adapted to a Pentax 6x7 bajonet
    - a Som Berthiot 25mm "normal" for 16mm video cameras, that used in reverse position, and with the right aperture, became a cheap subtitute for a true micro lens.
    So all my experiments involved "normal" non-symmetric lenses, optimized for infinite. I don't know which is the theory behind the use of a reversed enlarging lens. A simple rule of thumb would be enough...

    Last thing, you commented on Componons and Comparons.
    The longest focal enlarging lens i own is an humble Componar 4.5/105mm (well, it says 10,5 cm.). Being VERY old, i don't even know if it's a tessar-type or simply a triplet. Is it worth the time and effort to try to fit it on a shutter?

    have fun

    CJ

  5. #5

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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    you will be ok just with coverage with the 105mm if your using it fo closeup/macro.

    you have the lens, poke a hole in some cardboard and wack it on the camera.

  6. #6

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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    Cyberjunkie, I think that Polaroid didn't use Compur shutters. Prontor Press on the MP-3, Copal Press on the MP-4 and Gel Cams.

    Simple rule: if the lens is intended to be used with small negative behind and large subject/print in front, then use it facing normally (front towards subject/print) when taking at < 1:1/printing at > 1x. Reverse when taking at >= 1:1/printing at <= 1x. This makes best use of the lens' optimization.

    You say you have a 100/5.6 Componon-S. It has to be a better lens than a 105/4.5 Componar. Forget the Componar, try the Componon-S. The Componar should be a triplet.

    Good luck finding a 17/4 Tominon. They're not common, are the most expensive of the MP-4 Tominons when bought used. Play with your 35 Tominon before starting to shop seriously for a 17. If you can get the magnification needed with the 35, there's no point getting a 17. Remember that the 17 will give very short working distance.

    BUY THE LEFKOWITZ BOOK! You come across as knowing too little to be safe or efficient.

    So you used a SOM cine lens for high magnification work. Good. I don't know which one you used, suspect that the 25/1.9 Cine Ektar II shot reversed at f/2.8, not wide open, will do better. I know that the 50/4.5 Enlarging Ektar beats the 50 Tominon and the 75/4.5 Enlarging Ektar beats the 75 Tominon, all lenses mounted normally. These two Enlarging Ektars are heliar types, symmetrical, so don't have to be reversed when used above 1:1. But try y'r Tominons before rushing out to get anything else, they're usable.

    Cheers,

    Dan

  7. #7

    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    CJ I've used a 135mm componon s in a copal 0 for copying art on 4x5 for the past thirty years and had excellent results. Making a 4x5 neg from a 16x20 piece of art is exactly the same as making a 16x20 print from a 4x5 neg. The only difference is the direction the lightis traveling. It makes no difference and works as well for copy work as it does for enlargement. The field is also very flat.

  8. #8
    cyberjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post

    So you used a SOM cine lens for high magnification work. Good. I don't know which one you used, suspect that the 25/1.9 Cine Ektar II shot reversed at f/2.8, not wide open, will do better. I know that the 50/4.5 Enlarging Ektar beats the 50 Tominon and the 75/4.5 Enlarging Ektar beats the 75 Tominon, all lenses mounted normally. These two Enlarging Ektars are heliar types, symmetrical, so don't have to be reversed when used above 1:1. But try y'r Tominons before rushing out to get anything else, they're usable.
    I don't have the cine lens at hand now, but i think that you guessed right!!
    It's definitely a 25mm f1.9. And when used in reverse position had an almost conical shape that was very good for lighting the subject even when the lens was very close to it.

    I am getting old, that's thesad truth, and my post will confirm it bejond any reasonable doubt. I realize that many things you (and the other very helpful members of the forum) are telling me are not new at all! Iam, well...rediscovering many things i already knew, and that i have forgotten long time ago!
    After all, i used LF equipment for a very short time, and i haven't tripped the leaf shutters of my LF lenses since nearly twenty years! No suprise if some are stuck and most have very bad slow speeds.
    Of course the Compound still works OK :-)
    What's really unbelievable is that i have some lenses i didn't remeber at all, and at the same time i didn't find two lenses i was quite sure to own!
    I expected to find a Tele-Arton and a 150mm Apo Lanthar, but probably i have sold them, cause they are not there. But even more amazing, there are two lenses i didn't remember at all! It's a 270mm Rotelar and an incredibly bulky, and heavy, Tokina 152mm f2.8. I even have a Super Angulon 8/75mm, very strange, cause i remembered only an Angulon 6.8/90mm that originally came with my Technika III.
    No wonder if i'm asking stupid questions, and getting answers i realize i already knew...

    Bah, i'm feeling a little ashamed, but i couldn't refrain from writing about it, cause it's really incredible :-)

    Nack to the original thread now, and sorry for the detour.
    Speaking of enlarger/repro lenses adaptable for LF use, i found also a Repro Claron 210mm. That's not a suprise, i knew about its existence, but reading some posts on the forum i have realized that it could be worth the time and effort to find a way to mount it on a shutter, and use it either with a 4x5 or with a 5x7.
    My lens is exactly the same one as the barrel-mounted Claron portrayed on the pdf available on Schneider web site. I found the URL on this forum, and elsewhere.
    The lens has a mounting flange, and has both a conventional iris, plus some slot-in diaphragms. A few are missing, but i have the adjustable one.
    The minimum f value available is abysmally small. Of course after a certain point the diffraction should play an adverse role, but i guess that this lens is less prone to diffraction than conventional ones.
    Of course, mounting the Repro-Claron on a conventional shutter that has already a diaphragm, i would say good-bye to all those minimal f/stop values, and probably i would not get that perfectly round aperture provided by the many leafs that compose the original iris mechanism.
    The other choice would be to try to find an old big, cheap, shutter, and have an adapter ring machined to front mount the lens, using the thread that screws onto the flange.

    I'm here, all ears, waiting for your precious feedback.
    Please don't spare directions about what makes sense, economically speaking. I must admit that i don't know the current pricings, and that i don't know anymore somebody who could do that kind of work on the cheap, as a part time job.

    have fun

    CJ

  9. #9

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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    CJ, for Repro-Clarons go here: http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/ar...pro_claron.pdf They are 4/4 dialyte type process lenses, in the same family as Apo Artars, Apo Ronars, and some but not all Apo Nikkors. The 210 covers 178 mm at infinity. Its cells should go directly into a #0 shutter. The barrel should be threaded M53x0.75 at the rear.

    I've had a 55/8, fine lens but not so good for the application I had in mind for it because f/8. I wanted to use it above 1:1, the small effective aperture would have guaranteed poor resolution. Diffraction bites, and hard. Buy the Lefkowitz book! But y'r 210 should do well for closeup work below 1:1.

    Some (all?) ReproClarons were made with radioactive (Thorium, and not as a contaminant) glass, these will be yellowed by now but UV will clear them. A month under a 20w UVB fluorescent cleared my little 55.

    I buy mount adapters (female to accept the lens in barrel at the front, male to screw into a #1 shutter at the rear) from skgrimes. Prices depend on size, ask them for an estimate.

  10. #10
    cyberjunkie's Avatar
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    Re: Enlarging lenses as close-up taking lenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Dan Fromm View Post
    CJ, for Repro-Clarons go here: http://www.schneiderkreuznach.com/ar...pro_claron.pdf They are 4/4 dialyte type process lenses, in the same family as Apo Artars, Apo Ronars, and some but not all Apo Nikkors. The 210 covers 178 mm at infinity. Its cells should go directly into a #0 shutter. The barrel should be threaded M53x0.75 at the rear.

    I've had a 55/8, fine lens but not so good for the application I had in mind for it because f/8. I wanted to use it above 1:1, the small effective aperture would have guaranteed poor resolution. Diffraction bites, and hard. Buy the Lefkowitz book! But y'r 210 should do well for closeup work below 1:1.

    My Repro-Claron is exactly the same as the lens portrayed on the picture of the pdf you linked. It's a very old model, and i am afraid that it would not keep the correct lens placement if the front and rear cells are mounted on a standard #0 shutter.
    But i hope i'm wrong.
    I own it since quite a long time, but i never used it, cause the adapter i made for the Pentax 6x7 had a small problem, it just needed a small lathe filing, but was never fixed...
    Now i hope to bring a new life to it.
    From what i have read on the forum, and elsewhere, the Repro is as acceptable as the G-Claron at infinity, just less coverage.
    An interesting thing i've read about the G-Claron is that it can be used as a convertible. Better if with B&W film and with a yellow filter.
    The two Clarons are both symmetric in design, but the Repro is only a 4-element lens, and i don't know if it's worth or not to experiment using only the front cell.
    Sheet films are expensive, and i don't want to waste them with senseless experiments.
    On the other hand, i'd like to get a longer focal, at least 300mm, to be used with my old Fatif 5x7 camera. The Fatif came with the adapter for Linhof lens boards, so i could use some of the lenses for both 4x5 and 5x7. The cheapest lens i found is a Nikkor-M 300mm, with a modern Copal shutter. That would be nice, but if i could use the front element of the Repro-Claron as portrait lens, i could postpone the purchase and maybe save enough money for a Soft Focus long focal (no. 1 on my wish list), and then some kind of cheap Tessar-type long focal for general use.
    BTW, why all SF lenses are so expensive?

    Thanks for your kind support

    have fun

    CJ

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