Disappointed

[Steve Hamley]

Wil,

1: Loading holders become easy with practice (except maybe for ULF), so much so you won't even think about it.

2: Film is not cheap, but you can buy a lot of it for the price of a Phase One back. I can't think of buying a new car to save gas.

3: Don't understand, you can take as many as you want.

4: A view camera is more difficult and everyone I know is more critical of the shots they take because of film cost and the camera. But their work in general seems to be better because they aren't taking 1,000 extra shots just because they can. Image management is much easier because you have fewer of them.

But using a view camera isn't for everyone. Personally I like using a view camera, mixing the chemicals and developing film. If you don't, or don't get used to it, a view camera may not be for you.

5: like loading holders, you get used to it (at least most people do) and don't think about it anymore. Some find it better because they have to actually concentrate on the composition and see things they don't see with a corrected image.

6: It can be, but if you're doing B&W there's no reason not to do it yourself.

7: Darkroom time is enjoyable for most of us, but there is a learning curve.

8: 2400 dpi is not needed for most 4x5 scans and likely your scanner is interpolating at this setting. Scan at the maximum rated real resolution, usually between 700 and 1800 dpi.

9: That's what paper and pencils are for. Adams did it with an exposure record, and also kept printing diagrams.

10: Dust can be managed, but you do have to do it in dusty climes.

Sounds like you're not into new experiences, and if so, this may not be a road you want to go down. But you'll have just as many problems with a digital workflow, they're just different problems but maybe ones you're more comfortable dealing with.

Personally I don't like the digital process, but you can create art or document scenes with film, digital, a paint brush or whatever.

Good luck and hope it works out for you.

Cheers, Steve

[Alan Davenport]

None of your "issues" are really about results.

1. It gets easier with experience, but really this is just something most of us have gotten accustomed to having our cameras do for us. LF photography is 100% manual.

2. Yes, but that's not a result.

3. True. Once you get a bit more comfortable with the camera, you'll probably find that you have a higher percentage of keepers with LF. Also, the limited output, enforced by the slow, manual nature of the medium, tends to reduce the cost (your items 2 and 6.) My own experience with large format vs. 35mm film, is that I spend a lot less with 4x5 film than with 35mm, because I can't blast through 6 rolls in a day.

4. "Big" deal. That's why it's called "large" format. Again, gets easier with practice and you'll be the one the tourists point at and talk about.

5. Requires a different way of seeing. I find the inverted image on the GG helps to isolate form and texture from the subject matter.

6. See #2.

7. That's called "photography." Just another one of those things we've gotten lazy about because we're used to having other folks, or our cameras, do for us.

8. Drink coffee while waiting. Or beer. Your choice. The limited number of photos in a day (#3) mediates this problem anyhow.

9. Hallelujah! Finally you've hit on a positive note. There's no histogram, either; hooray! Buy some pocket-sized notepads and a pencil; and write down your exposure data. Why expect your camera to do your work for you? (I use a PDA to keep my data.)

10. Well yes, this is one we all struggle with. Try vacuuming your changing bag and all of the holders just before you load them; that helps me a lot. Also make sure your scanning routine is as dust-free as possible.

There is a learning curve with large format, and I'll also admit it's not for everyone. But keep at it and you might just find a slower, more contemplative form of photography has other rewards.

[Jim collum]

There are often dust removal options in the scanning software... Using too strong a setting will remove detail, as well as give that 'plastic' look..but it can be used to remove a lot of what remains after some of the above methods have been added to the workflow

http://www.photo-i.co.uk/Reviews/int...700/page_9.htm


The time involved and the wait before you get a final image is all part of the 'zen' aspect of large format photography. I find taking the 4x5 out with film, and the developing process helps in slowing down the pace of life... sort of a sanity check/brake system for me. After you start getting a final image that you're happy with.. you might realize that the time spent becomes something you look forward to, rather than just a long wait

i'd recommend keeping at it!

[kev curry]

What... you've been at it a few weeks and you still haven't completely mastered the whole process of LF photography? That's definitely a sure and unmistakable sign that you should throw in the towel right away. Just ditch the gear, grab the digicam and return to where ever you came from, that's my advice;-)

[Wil_Bloodworth]

Several of the points you made will change over time. After a few months I found loading the film holders to be simple.

I can make 20 or so negative in a day easily but try to keep the number down because shooting more does not mean mode good photos. LF shooting includes thinking about each shot, contemplating and pre-visualizing. This make for a much hight percentage of good photographs.

Working with the camera also get easier with use.

Developing film in a jobo drum by hand is not really a problem. I did it that way for quite a while before buying a jobo machine. Yes, as others has mentioned, darkroom workflow is not for everyone, but it may be something that you hate in the beginning and learn to love over time. Except the 24 hour drying time seems way long, my typical drying time is < 2 hours here in Phoenix.

With a drum, developing is not that easy to screw up. I make mistakes all the time and the film is forgiving.

Hang in there for a bit before giving up on lf photography. You may find it grows on you.

Jeremy,

Thanks for the information. 2 to 3 hours is a lot better than 24! I'm using the HP Combi-Plan tank for development. I don't know anything about a jobo drum or machine but I'll google it and read up.

I also need to either bring my DSLR and use it's spot meter or get a dedicated one with the zones on it... which is probably a better idea. My sekonic only does incident readings. I guess I could just sell it and upgrade to a better sekonic.

- Wil

[Wil_Bloodworth]

Wil,

8: 2400 dpi is not needed for most 4x5 scans and likely your scanner is interpolating at this setting. Scan at the maximum rated real resolution, usually between 700 and 1800 dpi.

Sounds like you're not into new experiences, and if so, this may not be a road you want to go down. But you'll have just as many problems with a digital workflow, they're just different problems but maybe ones you're more comfortable dealing with.

Good luck and hope it works out for you.

Cheers, Steve

Steve,

Thanks for that scan info. I wasn't sure so I just did a bit of reading and went with 2400 DPI. And I'm definitely into new experiences... it has just been a lot more *new* information all at once. It's like trying to take a drink from a firehose.

- Wil

[Wil_Bloodworth]

The time involved and the wait before you get a final image is all part of the 'zen' aspect of large format photography. I find taking the 4x5 out with film, and the developing process helps in slowing down the pace of life... sort of a sanity check/brake system for me. After you start getting a final image that you're happy with.. you might realize that the time spent becomes something you look forward to, rather than just a long wait

i'd recommend keeping at it!

Jim,

I've seen some REALLY excellent work from the LF guys. I guess I was expecting too much from myself right out of the box. Being a 35mm guy for so long you get used to knowing exactly what to expect and what your results will be. Getting into LF has thrown me was out of my comfort zone and that's probably just where I'm at right now. I just need to figure out all of the issues and learn to be comfortable in both zones.

- Wil

[Wil_Bloodworth]

None of your "issues" are really about results.

1. It gets easier with experience, but really this is just something most of us have gotten accustomed to having our cameras do for us. LF photography is 100% manual.

2. Yes, but that's not a result.

3. True. Once you get a bit more comfortable with the camera, you'll probably find that you have a higher percentage of keepers with LF. Also, the limited output, enforced by the slow, manual nature of the medium, tends to reduce the cost (your items 2 and 6.) My own experience with large format vs. 35mm film, is that I spend a lot less with 4x5 film than with 35mm, because I can't blast through 6 rolls in a day.

4. "Big" deal. That's why it's called "large" format. Again, gets easier with practice and you'll be the one the tourists point at and talk about.

5. Requires a different way of seeing. I find the inverted image on the GG helps to isolate form and texture from the subject matter.

6. See #2.

7. That's called "photography." Just another one of those things we've gotten lazy about because we're used to having other folks, or our cameras, do for us.

8. Drink coffee while waiting. Or beer. Your choice. The limited number of photos in a day (#3) mediates this problem anyhow.

9. Hallelujah! Finally you've hit on a positive note. There's no histogram, either; hooray! Buy some pocket-sized notepads and a pencil; and write down your exposure data. Why expect your camera to do your work for you? (I use a PDA to keep my data.)

10. Well yes, this is one we all struggle with. Try vacuuming your changing bag and all of the holders just before you load them; that helps me a lot. Also make sure your scanning routine is as dust-free as possible.

There is a learning curve with large format, and I'll also admit it's not for everyone. But keep at it and you might just find a slower, more contemplative form of photography has other rewards.

Alan,

You're right. I was basically looking at all of the differences with LF and digital 35mm and casting a slightly negative tone to the LF side. However, none of the differences really matter to me in the least. Nor do they have anything to do with image quality. I really just want to end up with a spectacular image... which I know is possible.

- Wil

[Robert Hughes]

What a great thread! Imagine what the OP would say about his first experience with sex:

1: The clothes were a PITA to take off (which you have to do in total darkness just by touch)
2: The bedding is expensive ($1.25 a sheet)
3: You can only do it (8 for me) times in a day
4: The swollen reproductive organs are huge and very difficult to work with
5: It's difficult (for me) to get the position I want because everything is upside down
6: Getting the video onto YouPorn is expensive if you get it done at a lab
7: If you do the deek yourself:
a) it has to be done in the dark (duh)
b) is messy
c) she takes forever - I was done in seconds!
d) is easy to screw up (where do you put this thing?)
e) you have to wait 24 hours for the sheets to dry
8: Takes forever for her to get me a decent cup of coffee next morning
9: No cell phone reception in her bedroom
10: Dust and scratches EVERYWHERE! The sheets look like dirt was just thrown on them. You have to spend forever and a day inside the bathroom removing spots, hairs, scratches, etc. This was the worst part for me. My IQ just didn't cut it but it could be my fault.

Duh!

[Bob McCarthy]

Check out your scanner the platen is usually a source of much dust, use a pec pad and a good non-ammonia window cleaner,

Keep the negative in a sleeve and blow off before use.

Do not pixel peep when touching up the scanned file. 50% is about where dust becomes visible in a print. Do NOT go to 200% and try to clean every nuggie. Your be busy for days, and get nothing for your efforts.

Scan at 1800 dpi.

For a first effort the building was very good. You should have seen my first print from a big negative. Flat not very sharp, focal plane not nailed.

But the point is, that was 30 years ago. Give it time, very quickly you'll get the process down. Too many moving parts at first.

Not implying it takes 30 years. It happens quickly, don't worry

90% comes quickly, maybe in a matter of months if you work at it, last 10% will take a lifetime.

bob