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Thread: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

  1. #1

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    Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    This thread is an offspring from this thread.

    I have been using 4 x 5 cameras for more than 30 years, the last 13 an Arca Swiss F-line with which I have been very pleased. I print quite big, mostly 26 x 33" - previously in the darkroom - now I scan the negatives on an Agfa T2500 and make inkjet prints. The process of moving from the darkroom to inkjet has made me much more aware of image quality, and I have also spent some time examining my old 17 x 22" prints, which of course look much better than the 26 x 33" in terms of sharpness, resolution, and tonal separation.

    So, I've decided to get a bigger camera. First I thought I'd get a 5 x 7, but then I became aware that there are several modern WP cameras on the market. The advantages of this format are obvious - close to 8 x 10 in size and quality, but cameras are smaller and lighter, and you can use all the lightweight lenses that just cover 8 x 10, but have room for movements on 6.5 x 8.5.

    The Ebony is very attractive, but expensive. (and heavy) The Chamonix is lightweight and relatively cheap, and my most likely choice, particularly since I would like to buy 15 - 20 holders as well. The Argentum cameras are very beautiful and lightweight, but I don't think I could live without the shift movement.

    Sal Santamaura and Oren Grad have kindly offered to answer my questions about the Ebony and the Chamonix, so here goes:

    @ Sal: I've noticed that most Ebonys have combined controls for tilt and rise. What's it like to operate them? The outermost knobs look a bit small and fiddly. And do they work completely independently of each other?
    Other than that, I wonder why the WP Ebonys are so heavy. The non-folding version actually weighs 1,4 kg more than the lightest 8 x 10.

    @ Oren:
    1. The Chamonix seems to have a single control for front tilt and rise. Can you confirm that? This was the most annoying feature of a Zone VI camera I had - every time I raised or lowered the lens, it would tilt out of the vertical position - or whatever tilt I had set it to before.

    2. Do you miss not having a focus lock? I think not having it would make me nervous ... I have established email contact with Hugo Zhang, who says the factory can add a lock.

    3. What's your experience with the spirit levels? According to Hugo, I can have one installed on the front at the factory.

    4. I thought this camera came with a fresnel lens, but apparently it doesn't. How would you rate the brightness of the ground glass?

    5. How would you characterize the bellows - stiff or flexible? Do you think movements with a 165 mm lens would be restricted by the bellows?

    6. Have you had any problems with the Chamonix holders? Are they easy to insert and remove? And finally - I'd like to know the weight and outside dimensions of the holders.

    Thanks for taking the time to answer all these questions.

  2. #2

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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Per Berntsen View Post
    ...I've noticed that most Ebonys have combined controls for tilt and rise. What's it like to operate them? The outermost knobs look a bit small and fiddly. And do they work completely independently of each other?...
    Yes, they are completely independent. Not at all fiddly for me, but I have thin fingers. If possible I suggest you try a 4x5 Ebony camera in your area; those controls are the same as corresponding ones on the wholeplate version.

    Quote Originally Posted by Per Berntsen View Post
    ...I wonder why the WP Ebonys are so heavy. The non-folding version actually weighs 1,4 kg more than the lightest 8 x 10...
    I believe Hiromi's design philosophy is "as heavy as necessary to provide the ease of use and stability he deems acceptable." Mahogany and titanium weigh what they weigh.

    Difference in weight between the folding Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras is 1.1 kg. I think that, if you're going to be carrying 15 - 20 holders plus a couple of lenses, the total pack weights will be close. I believe you will find the Chamonix holders wonderful and, since they were patterned after my Lotus holders, which Hiromi designed the Ebony camera's back for, perfectly compatible.

  3. #3
    Dave Karp
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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    Per,

    I have thought about a modern WP camera to replace my WP Seneca for a while. Mostly, the reason is the absence of front tilt or swing on the front standard.

    The Ebony is out of my price range. The Chamonix, which looks like a beautiful camera in many respects, might be a possibility in time. There is another issue with that design that you did not raise that causes me a problem: The combination control for the front shift and swing. I think that would make me nuts.

    One thing I have considered for the time when finances allow is having someone make a WP back that I can put on my 4x5 ARCA. The bellows could be made to taper to the front standard on the ARCA. With the right pieces on the telescoping rail, you could use lenses up to 600mm, have 100% of the front movements, and most likely everything but rear rise. I guess you could have it made to give you rear rise too, but it would become more bulky. You could likely collapse the whole thing onto one of the small rails, so it would be relatively compact to carry.

    Just some thoughts from someone who has been thinking about this too much, since I am not really in the market to t buy a new camera now anyway. Especially since you say you like your ARCA.

  4. #4

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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    I believe Hiromi's design philosophy is "as heavy as necessary to provide the ease of use and stability he deems acceptable." Mahogany and titanium weigh what they weigh.
    Yes, obviously. But the wholeplate cameras definetely seem to be relatively much heavier than corresponding 5x7s and 8x10s - especially the non-folding version.

  5. #5
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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    Per, just a quick post for now to let you know I've seen this thread - I'll respond in detail to your questions later this evening, after I have work responsibilities out of the way. Stay tuned...

  6. #6

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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    David,

    Yes, the shift/swing is problematic too, but not nearly as much as the tilt/rise. I hardly ever use swings, but I imagine when using the shift, you can feel with your fingers if the front standard is paralell with the camera or not.

    As for modifying an Arca, it sounds like an interesting project, but I'd like to have a camera suited for the occasional backpacking trip. Even a non-folding Ebony can be used for that, but my 4x5 Arca with a short collapsible rail is awkard to pack, and then you have the enormous lens boards ...

  7. #7

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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    Sal,

    My previous post was a bit short. What I'm referring to is the following weights for non-folding mahogany Ebonys:
    5 x 7 (57S): 2,65 kg
    WP: 4,6 kg
    8 x 10: The three versions weigh respectively 4,0 - 4,0 and 3,2 kg (!)

    So the non-folding WP is heavier than all the non-folding 8 x10s ...
    Or could this be a typo on the Ebony website?

  8. #8

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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    Quote Originally Posted by Per Berntsen View Post
    Sal,

    My previous post was a bit short. What I'm referring to is the following weights for non-folding mahogany Ebonys:
    5 x 7 (57S): 2,65 kg
    WP: 4,6 kg
    8 x 10: The three versions weigh respectively 4,0 - 4,0 and 3,2 kg (!)

    So the non-folding WP is heavier than all the non-folding 8 x10s ...
    Or could this be a typo on the Ebony website?
    All my cameras, including Ebony SV57 and SV WP, are folding types. It is very important when making the above comparisons that you look closely at maximum bellows extension. The lighter cameras seem to have much shorter bellows (and structure to support them).

    For example, the 57S only goes to 300mm, while the WP-S reaches 575mm. Substantially longer than the proportional film format difference. The 8x10 versions you reference allow 380mm, 380mm and 400mm respectively. By comparison, my SV57 reaches 605mm and my SV WP extends to 730mm, both figures without base tilts.

    Ebony designs "custom" cameras for the customer who first orders them. Email exchanges between Hiromi and me (via Ian Wilson) went on for quite some time while we finalized the SV WP specifications. All the above cameras except SV57 and SW810 are "custom," meaning they started out the same as mine. Hiromi subsequently offers these custom designs to other buyers, but doesn't stock them. I suspect even the SW810 started out custom, but demand was high enough for it to become a stock item.

    If you would prefer a non-folding Ebony WP-S with a shorter than 575mm bellows -- more suitable to your 165mm lens -- I encourage you to contact Ebony. Hiromi seems very willing to work with individuals' needs. Such a camera would probably weigh a lot less than the current WP-S.

  9. #9

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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    Thanks for this clarification Sal.
    You're right in suggesting that I don't need long bellows - the longest lens I imagine using would be 300 - 360 mm. I don't actually own a 165, but I think it would be the widest lens I would be using.

    I'll contact Ebony as you suggested. Thanks again.

  10. #10
    Dave Karp
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    Re: Ebony and Chamonix wholeplate cameras

    Per,

    I assume you will keep your 4x5. If so, consider a Technika / ARCA adapter board. I picked one up on E-Bay, and all my lenses are mounted on Technika type boards. Much more compact. I built an adapter to use those boards on my WP Seneca, and they also fit natively on my Walker Titan SF.

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