Horsetail Fall, Yosemite

[Lenny Eiger]

it can be just as valuable photographing known scenes

A technical exercise can be useful but it is not equal to doing art. This is a conversation about what Photography is. Personally, I value photographs where the photographer has "understood" something. There is a beautiful thing that happens on occasion, when a viewer sees a photograph and "recognizes" something. It may be a kind of light, or something they know but haven't noticed. The instant they do, they realize that all humans know this. Like one of those energy waves in a Star Trek episode, it immediately binds all of us together.

This doesn't happen when one is copying work. I say it should not be a source of pride that I can take a photo (knowingly) of something anyone has taken. this is plagiarism. You can be proud of technical accomplishments, but it isn't something to put on your wall.

Like some others here, I have been doing this a long time. I can knock off perfect exposures one after another (without polaroids). They will all be well composed and speak to something. Some are successful and clearly some are not. The difference is going to be whether I have added anything to the conversation, whether there was any wisdom in there to share.

A long time ago, on a trip to Peru, while driving in a remote area, I came across a gallows. Hanging there, dead, was a dog. I got my camera out, excited. A photograph like that could have made me famous. Then I put my camera back in the car. I decided it wasn't what I wanted to talk about. it would add nothing to our humanity. A journalist might have done differently, and that's fine. It just isn't what I want to share with the rest of us.

If all we do are technical exercises, then it is all a waste of time. When do we stop testing and actually say something?

I have nothing bad to say about Keith, he is a fine photographer. I just think the workshops they offer at the AA gallery about how to take a specific photograph are missing the point entirely. I think especially with all the additional cameras on the market, its essential that artists know what it is they are communicating, and are not only aware but deliberate with their message.


Lenny

[Vaughn]

I, too, understand the points being made by Lenny and Drew, though for myself, I disagree -- except if the photographer has failed to put part of him/herself into the process.

I have put myself into harm's way to get an image, and have used vantage points that may have never been done before. But all of that means zip if the image and the resulting print can not stand on its own.

And its cool if people decide to avoid those over-photographed areas, such as Yosemite Valley or Pt Lobos. But BRAVO! to the photographer who goes to such places and pulls out of it an image that speaks of the sense of Place and of the photographer -- for they have risen up to the challenge and have not depended an area's uniqueness or the lack of general knowledge of a place to carry the image. I feel the same about images of unusual atmospheric conditions -- clearing storms, rainbows, et al.

[Greg Miller]

A technical exercise can be useful but it is not equal to doing art. This is a conversation about what Photography is. Personally, I value photographs where the photographer has "understood" something. There is a beautiful thing that happens on occasion, when a viewer sees a photograph and "recognizes" something. It may be a kind of light, or something they know but haven't noticed. The instant they do, they realize that all humans know this. Like one of those energy waves in a Star Trek episode, it immediately binds all of us together.

This doesn't happen when one is copying work. I say it should not be a source of pride that I can take a photo (knowingly) of something anyone has taken. this is plagiarism. You can be proud of technical accomplishments, but it isn't something to put on your wall.

Like some others here, I have been doing this a long time. I can knock off perfect exposures one after another (without polaroids). They will all be well composed and speak to something. Some are successful and clearly some are not. The difference is going to be whether I have added anything to the conversation, whether there was any wisdom in there to share.

A long time ago, on a trip to Peru, while driving in a remote area, I came across a gallows. Hanging there, dead, was a dog. I got my camera out, excited. A photograph like that could have made me famous. Then I put my camera back in the car. I decided it wasn't what I wanted to talk about. it would add nothing to our humanity. A journalist might have done differently, and that's fine. It just isn't what I want to share with the rest of us.

If all we do are technical exercises, then it is all a waste of time. When do we stop testing and actually say something?

I have nothing bad to say about Keith, he is a fine photographer. I just think the workshops they offer at the AA gallery about how to take a specific photograph are missing the point entirely. I think especially with all the additional cameras on the market, its essential that artists know what it is they are communicating, and are not only aware but deliberate with their message.


Lenny

Isn't it fair to say that there are workshops targeted for a variety of skill levels and a variety of interests? If every workshop was for a highly skilled photographers trying to create a high level artistic photograph, that would leave a huge void. There evidently a market for people wanting to take these types of photos. Some people are happy with that and have no aspirations beyond that. Seems like that is harmless enough.

Besides, musicians (even, and perhaps especially, the most accomplished) do endless technical drills, which allow them them to play more musically. Technical exercises have a valid place on the learning curve.

[Lenny Eiger]

Isn't it fair to say that there are workshops targeted for a variety of skill levels and a variety of interests? If every workshop was for a highly skilled photographers trying to create a high level artistic photograph, that would leave a huge void

I don't have any issue with this. I have decades of experience teaching, to all levels. The important thing to a youngster or newbie is to give them a idea what photography is all about and to give them a sense of what's possible - in addition to teaching them to develop film or to use curves in Photoshop.

There evidently a market for people wanting to take these types of photos. Some people are happy with that and have no aspirations beyond that. Seems like that is harmless enough.

There is also a market for the garbage products in WalMart. Doesn't mean it's harmless, or that we should buy products there. Further, do lousy posters hurt artists? I think they do.... And why would anyone want to support people with no aspirations?

Besides, musicians (even, and perhaps especially, the most accomplished) do endless technical drills, which allow them them to play more musically. Technical exercises have a valid place on the learning curve.

Of course they do. That doesn't mean that the technical exercise should be displayed as a finished product. You might go to a museum to paint a copy of a famous painting - art students do all the time. But they don't try and sell that piece to a gallery as their own.

The goal of teaching has to be to lead someone towards something that has something to it.

Lenny

[Brad Rippe]

Lenny,
Do you think the most inspirational photograph of Horsetail Falls has already been made and therefore all of us should put our cameras away and no one should attempt to photograph it further? Do you think the most incredible atmospheric light has already happened and the lichen stained granite walls have become so static that any future photograph of Horsetail Falls is merely a technical exercise?

Many of us on this forum are teachers. I used to teach in my local elementary schools, and I've learned a lot from your posts on digital stuff. Yosemite teaches us in countless ways; everything always changes. Think of the ice falling while Drew was out there, scary. Think of your first time with a view camera in the mountains, scary. (For me it was!)
These spectacular places will always be teaching us: about light, storms, water, unimaginably huge granite walls, and what inspires us to unpack our view cameras and make an image. We can't possibly have been taught all the lessons Horsetail Falls has yet to teach.

-Brad

[Greg Miller]

I don't have any issue with this. I have decades of experience teaching, to all levels. The important thing to a youngster or newbie is to give them a idea what photography is all about and to give them a sense of what's possible - in addition to teaching them to develop film or to use curves in Photoshop.

There is also a market for the garbage products in WalMart. Doesn't mean it's harmless, or that we should buy products there. Further, do lousy posters hurt artists? I think they do.... And why would anyone want to support people with no aspirations?



Of course they do. That doesn't mean that the technical exercise should be displayed as a finished product. You might go to a museum to paint a copy of a famous painting - art students do all the time. But they don't try and sell that piece to a gallery as their own.

The goal of teaching has to be to lead someone towards something that has something to it.

Lenny

Wow. That strikes me as very cynical to equate workshops in Yosemite to crap Walmart wall art and selling copycat art to galleries.

My bet is that (almost) all of the workshop participants are excited about photography and the possibility of replicating a photo already made by a photographer that they adore and respect. While that has zero appeal to me personally, I find it hard to find any harm in it either. While creating another copy of Horsetail Falls on fire may not serve the art world very well, many of the participants will walk away with knowledge that furthers their own art. I find it difficult to believe that any significant number of them are participating with the intent of selling crap/copy art to Walmart or galleries (and even if so I don;t see that stealing any sales from high end galleries (totally different customer base on many different levels).

I personally find none of that threatening to my own place on the photography world, whatever that may or may not be. I think the worst case scenario is some of the participants will find that they wasted their money but will walk away that much wiser.

[Drew Wiley]

Vaugn - I personally have made a number of prints of Pt Lobos quite unlike anything else I've ever seen anyone else do - and it's not because I did anything wierd like using a cracked lens or some bizaare PS tweak. I do like quiet, so these forays were mainly made on rainy winter days, but not always. Of course, the alternative to Pt Lobos is Salt Point, where I've also made a number of images which probably wouldn't be confused with those of anyone else either. It's all about personal vision. Staying away from the popular areas or crowded areas is just my way of feeling sane. I believe I could take equally good photos in a crowded downtown environment, if I weren't constantly worried about my equipment being tripped over, and if I didn't really need the relaxation of frequently being out on the hills or coast or whatever. There's a major part of my work the public has no knowledge of, which I might want to exhibit someday, almost my alter-ego, so to speak. I hate to prostitute these images on the web, and almost regret putting any images up. Looking at a real print nose-to-nose is a whole different level of experience.

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny,
Do you think the most inspirational photograph of Horsetail Falls has already been made and therefore all of us should put our cameras away and no one should attempt to photograph it further? Do you think the most incredible atmospheric light has already happened and the lichen stained granite walls have become so static that any future photograph of Horsetail Falls is merely a technical exercise?

Yes, I do. There are always local details that can be of interest, but framing the whole thing in the same way is done in my opinion. I wouldn't do a shot of White House Ruin in Canyon de Chelley either. I wouldn't shoot peppers in the same way Weston did. Other vegetables are fair game, I suppose, or a different arrangement of peppers.

I am not partial to the "spectacular" style of landscape. I don't consider sunset shots art, generally, although I suppose it isn't impossible. I find them very commercial. There are not enough people who study History to see what has gone before and this is the result. Pretty colors do not make an image.

Many of us on this forum are teachers. I used to teach in my local elementary schools, and I've learned a lot from your posts on digital stuff.

Of course they are, and thank you.

Yosemite teaches us in countless ways; everything always changes. Think of the ice falling while Drew was out there, scary. Think of your first time with a view camera in the mountains, scary. (For me it was!)
These spectacular places will always be teaching us: about light, storms, water, unimaginably huge granite walls, and what inspires us to unpack our view cameras and make an image. We can't possibly have been taught all the lessons Horsetail Falls has yet to teach.
-Brad

You are obviously deeply connected to the natural world. This is a quality to be admired; always. We share some of the same interests in that regard. These days, I am interested in smaller things and images that are authentic. I like both the process and the result of slowing down enough to connect to a tree before I photograph it. Or anything else...

Lenny

[Lenny Eiger]

Wow. That strikes me as very cynical to equate workshops in Yosemite to crap Walmart wall art and selling copycat art to galleries.

Greg, That's a cheap shot. I have many friends that teach there, even some whose work I like. Some of their workshops are great. I don't like the idea of showing people how to take a particular picture, especially the same one done a thousand times, it seems ridiculous to me. That's just one of the workshops over there, some of which are excellent.

I personally find none of that threatening to my own place on the photography world, whatever that may or may not be. I think the worst case scenario is some of the participants will find that they wasted their money but will walk away that much wiser.

I'm not threatened. I don't consider that I have a place in the photography world, I have nothing to lose. I think the students are shortchanged in that one class. They would be better off looking at some slides of Dorothea Lange's work. Maybe Lewis Hine. Perhaps some Muybridge or Carleton Watkins and discussing what made them special, how they approached things.

A long time ago I questioned a mentor of mine about where I was - was I any good, was I great, was I good for a graduating student. I was trying to get my bearings. He said that I had excellent skills, technically and aesthetically. He then added - "and if you ever become half a human being, you might have something."

It's not about a superb color on a special day - that's just about making postcards. It's about our humanity, and our relationship to our world. Do we come to this place with respect and honoring, or are we here to steal something, or to make something we can sell? Do we acknowledge that we are part of it? What is this really all about?

Photography is about relationship, that's what shows through in someone's images. That's what viewers see.

Lenny

[Greg Miller]

Greg, That's a cheap shot. I have many friends that teach there, even some whose work I like. Some of their workshops are great. I don't like the idea of showing people how to take a particular picture, especially the same one done a thousand times, it seems ridiculous to me. That's just one of the workshops over there, some of which are excellent.



I'm not threatened. I don't consider that I have a place in the photography world, I have nothing to lose. I think the students are shortchanged in that one class. They would be better off looking at some slides of Dorothea Lange's work. Maybe Lewis Hine. Perhaps some Muybridge or Carleton Watkins and discussing what made them special, how they approached things.

A long time ago I questioned a mentor of mine about where I was - was I any good, was I great, was I good for a graduating student. I was trying to get my bearings. He said that I had excellent skills, technically and aesthetically. He then added - "and if you ever become half a human being, you might have something."

It's not about a superb color on a special day - that's just about making postcards. It's about our humanity, and our relationship to our world. Do we come to this place with respect and honoring, or are we here to steal something, or to make something we can sell? Do we acknowledge that we are part of it? What is this really all about?

Photography is about relationship, that's what shows through in someone's images. That's what viewers see.

Lenny

I apologize if you think this was a cheap shot. It was not intended to be. I gave an honest reaction to your comments, which somehow brought into play cheap Walmart art and selling copy art to galleries.

I just thought/think that it is quite stretch and pretty obtuse to go from Horsetail Falls workshops to those levels. Probably over 99% of the people attend that workshop because they think it is a cool phenomenon and makes a for a cool photo (from their perspective). They probably want a cool shot to show off to their local camera club or neighbors. Many probably fantasize about being a top artistic photographer. But I doubt very many of them are going to walk away thinking they are making serious groundbreaking art or sell something to Walmart.

There's nothing wrong with offering this type of workshop because there are all kinds of interests in photography. Everybody who enjoys photography doesn't have to as serious about creating grounbreaking imagry. There's room for all of them, and there are other workshops for those who want to extend their artistry.