Your Oldest Lens

[Scotty230358]

The oldest lens I own is an unbranded meniscus mounted in a polaroid shutter. I don't know how old it is. The oldest lens I use regularly is a Series III berlin Dagor (120mm f6.8). The serial number suggests that it was made in the early twenties.

[CCHarrison]

As discussed in email with Geoff, The Gardner & Harrison dates to 1851/1852 and features the square mount drive, which seems to have been found on a few different models during the 1851-1855 period. Its been found on CC Harrison lenses, HBH, Gardner&Harrison and Palmer & Longking, to name a few. Obviously, this G&H lens was cut after the fact for waterhouse stops.

The 282 Lewis is also cut after the fact. This is further confirmed by the 697 Lewis that remains uncut. I do think these may be pre 1852, and perhaps the 282 dates to the late 40's. I am basing that on a later Lewis lens I have seen that is marked "Lewis" NY not W&WH Lewis. I assume these are by HJ Lewis (the younger Lewis son who started making lenses himself in 1852ish), but I cant confirm this 100%.

It would seem to me we have enough evidence to start assuming that these 1850's barrels or at least parts may be made by one or two firms, even if the lenses (glass) were made by someone else. There is too much in common on too may different brands to assume these barrels - or at least some parts (like the radial drive systems) - arent from one or two sources.... Again, some speculation on my part, but I think accurate. Its complicated. We have opticians who made glass, manufacturers who likely made barrels, firms who perhaps did both glass and barrel, we have firms putting their name on items made by other companies, and we have Photographers who also put their names on lenses made by others. Tough to sort it all out...

Palmer & Longking lenses seem to have had both the square and more common circular drive. I assume the early 1852-1854ish Palmers have the square while later feature the circle. This, I assume, was based on parts supplies...Perhaps Scovill, Chapman or, a bit later, HBH supplied barrel parts, if not the whole barrel. And, I havent even brought up Usener and Willard in all this mess but they seem a bit later.

I think with enough of us posting pics of these lenses, and trying to compare side by side, we will find the commonality between these lenses.

P&L attached showing square mount and another P&L with round mount. Also attached is a Fitz of the same time period (cut after the fact)...

Best
Dan

[CCHarrison]

To follow up. Chapman was definitely a manufacturer of lenses in this period. He is likey an important key to some of this. He made lenses for others AND sold under his own name AND was a dealer in other lenses. Check out this 1854 ad from Anthony (1st ad on the left). Whats also interesting is they list 2 different quality levels of Palmer & Longking lenses !! first and second quality.

Dan

[JosephBurke]

When does the French maker Lerebours et Secretan fall into the early period?--I have three or four but no way to date them. I bought one several years ago that is supposedly 1840's and is my largest (physically) of the group.

[goamules]

This is my 1951 wholeplate CC Harrison with the square mount, Ser. 16xx. I have another with the serial number less than 100 more, but unfortunately it's missing the drive. But the way the screw holes look, it may have had a square mount too.

[goamules]

When does the French maker Lerebours et Secretan fall into the early period?--I have three or four but no way to date them. I bought one several years ago that is supposedly 1840's and is my largest (physically) of the group.

They are early too, but hard to date. If you know when a company started making lenses (which is what we're trying to do for Lewis), you can at least extrapolate how many were probably made each year. If they numbered in sequence. The Dallmeyer ledgers are available, so those are very accurately dated. Some companies, like Darlot, seemed to start and restart number sequences and it's very hard to figure a date or even a decade.

But back to Lerebours. I have 1845-1855 as an approximate range for Lerebours et Secretan [marked so]. I believe before the son joined Secretan, the elder Lerebours made very early lenses for the first few years of Daguerreotype cameras. So if you have a pillbox or sliding lenscap Lerebours [no Secretan] I'd say it's the early 1840s. The Petzval portraits are probably from 1846 on. Lerebours were an optical family, and making spectacles and equipment way back into the 1700s. See this post where Dan links some good info.

Look closely at the thin glass in the rear of yours (If assembled correctly, it will be the most rear). Near they very edge, it may be inscribed (actually engraved on the face of the glass) with the serial number in the edge of the glass. It's very tiny, like micro writing. This was something a couple early French Manufacturers did (Jamin sometimes inscribed "jamin" too). Post about French micro engraving .

Here are two different Lerebours et Secretans with the engraving. The white thing is a grain of rice.

[CCHarrison]

L&S were there almost from the start of photography (Lerebours, first by himself). Wrote 2 books about photography early on, first in 1843 then in 1846 (which shows some of L&S products and lens) which is on google for us all if you read french - see

http://books.google.com/books?id=yKk...cretan&f=false

Unlike some on the net, I always try to post my sources to reduce rumor and increase fact.

And here is another source to possibly help date your L&S lenses.... http://www.oldphotographiclenses.com..._Secretan.html

Best
Dan

[CCHarrison]

And another source to help date things from L&S based on their telescopes

http://historydb.adlerplanetarium.or...ature=secretan

Heres a telescope catalogue from 1853 http://www.sil.si.edu/digitalcollect...s/files/51737/

Dan

[goamules]

More early NP Lerebours info with sources http://www.marillier.nom.fr/collodio...antaneEN.html:

On 25 March 1840 he [Claudet] obtained the first licence to use the daguerreotype [in England], paying £200 to the British patentee.
He made many improvements in optics, stereoscopy, and devices for checking exposure and lenses, etc.
In May 1841 he brought in an improvement by preparing daguerreotype plates with an accelerator of iodine chloride (exposures from 10 to 20 seconds).
His friend N. P. LEREBOURS manufactured his objectives, his cameras, etc.
His work, his skill made him worthy to be named photographer to the Court of England.

[Petzval Paul]

Dan, I remember that P&L being on eBay... It was only marked 'P&L N.Y.' with no serial number, IIRC. Do you think, perhaps, that was a 2nd quality lens? At first, I was under the impression that it was a knock off, but the ad which you so kindly posted makes me suspect otherwise. No way to know, really, just a thought.

My P&L is just 67 numbers away from the one pictured and is identical in all respects, except that it is complete with hood and flange, and is much better condition. Don't have it around to snap a shot just now... Milan checked out mine and is convinced that Chapman was the manufacturer of P&L and perhaps some other makers' lenses.

The Fitz pictured used to be in my possession. Since Henry Fitz died in 1863, and the lens is marked 'H.G. Fitz' after his son, Henry Giles, who inherited the business although only 16 years old, I would place the lenses manufacturing date at 1863 due to the early serial number. Again, who can really say...

I, for one, definitely appreciate all of the information you are posting here and on your blog. Thanks!