The quality of German and Japanese-built equipment

[Natha Congdon]

I preface this potentially inflammatory question by saying that this is not a tr oll or invitation to flames or intemperate responses. I'm genuinely interested to see what people think.

I was just talking with a fellow frequenter of this group in a private email exc hange about our not-entirely-satisfactory experiences with a well-known US maker of LF cameras. I began thinking about the camera-makers that I associate with unimpeachable quality: Linhof, Sinar, Ebony, some might add Arca Swiss to the l ist. Though I know there are partisans who really love their Canhams and Philli ps and Wisners, it occurs to me that I have just not found the same level of "fi t and finish" in US-made cameras that I've bought. Not that they can't be well or beautifully made, but I'm talking about that "throw it off a cliff and keep r ight in using it" kind of ruggedness that Linhof, for example, has. Or the perfe ct precision of a Sinar. Not wanting to take this TOO far off-topic, I have to a dmit that I'm driving German and Japanese cars, too, and just don't generally fi nd US-made ones to be as reliable. IS there really something cultural about Ger many and Japan, presumably Switzerland, too, that allows things to be made more precisely, reliably and ruggedly? What IS it? Obviously, there are exceptions to prove the rule (Gitzo tripods from France, the venerable American Deardorff, some might say Reis tripods, though I haven't been as impressed with their usabi lity as, say, my Swiss-made B-1 ballhead!)

I'm hoping to capitalize on the recent "philosophical" bent of a few recent thre ads in this newsgroup, I guess. I am, by the way, American, and not in any way trying to denigrate the US in general. More curious I think about what allows t hings to be made the way they often are in Germany, Switzerland and Japan.

Nathan

[Peter Brown]

Hi Nathan,

I can't comment on US made cameras but, I'm currently building my own house and some of the building equipment that I've been using which is almost indesctructable, has "Made in the USA" stamped on it. Perhaps it just depends on the product being made. I currently own an Ebony - handmade in Japan, perfection in craftsmanship and design in my opinion, but I wouldn't like to throw it off a cliff! ;-) I have also used the Sinar cameras for years and they are certainly rugged and precise, but don't have the beauty of the Ebony, IMHO.

Precision engineering seems to be something that the German and Swiss manufacturers do with skill and have a well-deserved reputation for, but I've found the US made Leatherman knife/tool I use, is as good as my Swiss army knife - maybe even better.

Perhaps with camera equipment the, German, Swiss and Japanese makers just have more experience in this particular area - I certainly like their gear, but then again no one makes any good camera gear in Australia either - so they sort of have a monopoly ;-)

Kind regards

Peter Brown

[John Burnley]

Hopefully not too far off topic but this memorable true story has stayed with me for many years. While trying to get a variation on a Japanese thin walled step up ring, I took it to America's leading maker of photographic filters (do I need to give a name?) to see if they could accomodate me with anything superior. Remember, this was years ago when these step up rings were not nearly as commonplace as today - the 'days' of Spiratone's store in Flushing and NYC. The reps response was simple and unforgettable, "We can't make anything like that here." And he was right as what his company offered was, in comparison, crude, larger than necessary series size (i.e., series 8 to series 9 step up) step up rings that nonetheless did that job fine. But his response was scary to me. Can't make this in the USA? "Why not", I ask ... still. These days Tiffen acts as importer for those finely machined Japanese (and now Taiwanese?) rings.

[M.]

Of course there's Tradition, but I'll bet that our tax laws have something to do with it, too. Also, how about Gandolfi, in England?

[rich silha]

some companies just know how to make a great product and keep thier standards hi gh. i know of two camera companies i have experience with that have the concept rig ht but can't deliver the goods and fall very short of all expectations promised.

[Jim Galli]

We tolerate too much "whining" in the workplace in America. In my lifetime I have seen the "work ethic" if you will, degrade to the point where workers are incensed if someone actually expects them to work. It's actually kind of frightening. The politicians are fighting just today about employers having to pay for health insurance long after some lazy unemployable person is gone. The people who actually go to work and work, do it because they want to. But it's demoralizing to see folks getting paid more than you goofing off. We've enjoyed a 10 year windfall in this country because of the new internet phenomenon, but now that it's over, what do you do with a nation of people who don't expect to go to work and be productive. I'm no expert, but I think the other nations mentioned are laughing behind our backs.

[Andre Noble]

I agree with Nathan. Anything the size of a Honda Civic or smaller will invariably be better-manufactured in Japan, Germany. For example, I could envision an American company attempting the German Jobo type processors, but they'd be junk, believe me.

A good friend stopped talking to me inexplicably once. Then I remember I had sold her a Russian medium format 6x6 including fisheye for fifty dollars...

[e]

I've come across some very interesting written material that in great and philosophical detail describes the reasons for the quality and lack of, in certain areas of the world and the perceptions of large groups of people i.e countries, states etc.to their advantage or not. This material is fasinating as it posits transmigration of the soul(reincarnation)into different areas of the world and peoples through life and death. The theory is this....that it takes about 100 to 150 lifetimes to run the trip on planet earth.This requires many births and deaths....like a planetary school as we live more lifetimes we learn and grow.About 5000 years total time expended on the planet in various bodies. There are 5 levels...1st is infant soul...many aboriginal tribes and autistic children characterise this level...fear of complexity is prominant and much care needed in the life course. 2nd level is the baby soul where the soul is just able to start to move about in the world but with many limitations,especially religious(Iran is largly baby soul).3rd is young soul...this is where the shakers and movers are found ...the big achievers. 4th level is mature soul..after all the achievements have taken place a more artistic and philosophical point of view is learned.5th level is old soul...this is the level where the difference of the tangible in contrast to the intangeble are sorted out and balanced...often the worldy demands are avoided as the old soul has done much in the course of many lifetimes and now seeks truth and simplicity.Musicians can fall in this catogory as well as bums and hoboes...who want nothing to do with the demands of society.Maybe some photographers too! According to this info, countries manifest in a general way ..the levels of the soul and in the lifestyle, as well as the perceptions and products created. The US is mostly a young soul country and is therefore very ambitious,capitalistic and warlike while recent Germany is mature soul country.Most famous artists and geniuses are mature soul because they require precision and excellence in creation, and a higher value.Switzerland and Holland are old soul countries as they allow drugs and prostitution to be legal vs the US which has a need to put people in jail for this.Switzerland also stays out of war as the old soul has had enough of this in past lives and has nothing to learn from it. As far as cameras are concerned the Germans are very precice with high values(mature soul) in their construction, unlike the young soul Americans who are in it mostly for the fame/success or money... and that may have nothing to do with high quality.Hence the lack of respect of our autos and...where did our cameras go...we never equaled the Germans photo gear. Japan is another story entirely as they are late baby souls with an eye for repeatability and commercial sucess in a societal sense...Toyotas are different from Mercedes as Leicas are different from Nikons.Nikons/Toyotas=functionality(baby soul) while Leicas/Mercedes=uncompromising quality(mature soul). The soul levels are evidentin the creations. Ebony cameras as well as the exquisite Japanese works of art were most likely not the work of the prevailing soul level of Japan but of a mature or old soul trying to create quality/beauty in a systematic,robotic society. Food for thought eh?

[Joe Johnson]

It's always risky to generalize -- but no doubt the German's/Japanese/Swiss must have a gene that separates them from the rest of the pack when it comes to techno-super quality and attention to detail. Some other facts: American workers are the most productive in the world and work longer hours on average than other industrialized countries. German workers are among the most pampered in the world with 6 weeks of vacation and very short work weeks. Therefore, this issue of attention to detail and unsurpassed quality has little to do with the work ethic of the people as was alluded above. Another observation is that on average, US corporations consistently deliver much higher profit margins than their counterparts in other countries, particularly Japan and Germany (auto industry aside). The market in the US is brutally focused on quarterly profit delivery, much more than eleswhere. This undoubtedly has an impact on the way we think about business even though a number of the camera manufacturers mentioned above are probably private and don't feel that type of pressure.

I think the poster who mentioned several high-quality companies from the US has the right idea. The issue really boils down to the person or team at the helm of the company and his/their attitude and requirements. Those few companies which really value fit/finish/artestry above all else stand out, but I'm not sure they get the return on capital demanded in the US economy. Therein lies the rub. fwiw, I'm an American who's worked in both US an European large corporations for about 20 years and overseas for the last 14 years.

[Kevin J. Kolosky]

come on folks, its one thing and one thing only, and that is the ability to put more money into the product itself, because less money is going into the cost of the labor. When I say product itself, that means things like culling out specimens that are no good. I believe I read somewhere on this forum at one time that Zeiss throws away an incredible number of their top end binoculars ever year on the one hand just to protect their warranty on the other end. same probably goes for Leica, Sinar, Hasselblad, Roles, BMW, and Mercedez.