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Thread: Photographing the homeless...

  1. #41
    bdkphoto
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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    Quote Originally Posted by r.e. View Post
    Rick,

    As someone who does a good deal of street photography, and who consequently has read a good deal of both well-considered and ill-considered comments on this subject, your last post strikes me as far and away the best brief analysis that I have seen.

    QT, the actual legal point, apart from the fact that the legalities are irrelevant to the discussion, is that the person who started this thread had the consent of the subject.

    End of story, except in the commercial realm, where you are as a practical matter wrong - publishers, and especially film distributors in the case of movies, don't give a damn about Federal Court caselaw. They take the marching orders of their insurers, who aren't interested in being drawn into this debate in the absence of a definitive ruling from the Supreme Court, which doesn't exist.

    Intersting, the US is the country where this gets litigated. Off the top of my head, I can think of at least one feature film by Eric Rhomer that contains footage that appears to have been shot in a public place (a major intersection in Paris) where the people crossing the street are pretty obviously just there/passersby/caught in the shot. There isn't a hope in hell that this would make the final cut of an American feature film.

    There are endless discussions about the legalities on this and other sites. If this discussion has any merit, it is that it has avoided descending to that level.
    Your assertions about feature films is quite incorrect. Films (and TV) are shot all the time using real people in public spaces as backround. I had the pleasure of being the second unit cinematographer on a feature film that was shot in NYC in the mid 90's. All we did was travel NYC and shoot real people in the city-- Grand Central Station, Wall Street, the World Trade Center etc. Much of it made the final cut. No releases. The famous scene in Midnight Cowboy where Dustin Hoffman is nearly hit by a cab and yells "hey I'm walkin here" was really a cab that almost hit him...he stayed in character and they used the take. Anyone who lives in NYC probably has stories about Law & Order shooting here. I know I've walked through their live shoots many times-- Books are published all the time without releases as well.

  2. #42

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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    Bruce, all I can say is that our experience, including in New York, is different. As I said earlier, the one exception is when a sign is posted saying that anyone who enters into camera range is taken as having consented. When you talk about "background", I suspect that you mean unrecognizable on the footage. That is another matter, and not what I am talking about. I do not believe that any network or feature film distributor, in the absence of a release, will broadcast non-documentary footage that contains recognizable images of anyone whose consent is not crystal clear (i.e. documented). The situation in the US has gotten so touchy as a result of litigation that this is even effecting documentary films. It is not driven by law, but by insurers who are not interested in being involved in lawsuits. This is not news. The situation is discussed regularly by documentary filmmakers in particular, who feel the brunt of this. It has also become an issue in Canada, where a good many fictional films are being made, and where documentary filmmakers are also feeling pressures over the issue of consent.

    I agree that books of street photography are published all the time without releases. I already said that. In fact, the manner in which street photography in the traditional sense is done is inconsistent with the existence of a release.
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  3. #43
    bdkphoto
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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    Quote Originally Posted by r.e. View Post
    Bruce, all I can say is that our experience, including in New York, is different. As I said earlier, the one exception is when a sign is posted saying that anyone who enters into camera range is taken as having consented. When you talk about "background", I suspect that you mean unrecognizable on the footage. That is another matter, and not what I am talking about. I do not believe that any network or feature film distributor, in the absence of a release, will broadcast non-documentary footage that contains recognizable images of anyone whose consent is not crystal clear (i.e. documented). The situation in the US has gotten so touchy as a result of litigation that this is even effecting documentary films. It is not driven by law, but by insurers who are not interested in being involved in lawsuits. This is not news. The situation is discussed regularly by documentary filmmakers in particular, who feel the brunt of this. It has also become an issue in Canada, where a good many fictional films are being made, and where documentary filmmakers are also feeling pressures over the issue of consent.

    I agree that books of street photography are published all the time without releases. I already said that. In fact, the manner in which street photography in the traditional sense is done is inconsistent with the existence of a release.
    What feature films have you shot in NYC?

  4. #44

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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    I heard ND is almost as cold as Canada

    You can't shoot what isn't there,
    but you should not be ignoring what is, most larger urban settings have a homeless problem.

    Winter in Montreal sees a huge portion of the "homeless" flee before the snow sets in. The bulk of these are "holiday homeless" or "tourists". Generally kids, from the out lying areas who come to Montreal to spend the summer stoned, sleeping in parks, squeegeeing and go to punk concerts. Then they dash home when the party season ends.

    These are the type of "homeless" that make life harder for the real homeless who live on the streets 12 moths a year.
    These are the ones that cause the vast majority of the damage. Not many true homeless are aggressive, I can think of only one that is very volatile, at least of those that I cross paths with regularly.

    Some homeless jump trains and head to the west coast where the winters are milder, they can no longer jump trains to the southern states for the winter as most trains get scanned (that has started only in recent years), and they get caught and sent home.







    Quote Originally Posted by Dakotah Jackson View Post
    "You can NOT document the streets of your city, capture the heart and soul of your city, without addressing homelessness, but......"

    You don't live in North Dakota, do you?

    Very little of the homeless here. 30 below zero makes a cardboard box house a cardboard casket.
    Last edited by Allen in Montreal; 8-Dec-2009 at 07:01.

  5. #45
    multiplex
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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    instead of making photographs
    maybe efforts should be directed to buying someone a hot meal.
    while there is a long history of photographing the "disadvantaged"
    often times it is for one's own advantage
    ... wearing someone else's shoes sometimes helps
    Last edited by jnantz; 8-Dec-2009 at 07:51.

  6. #46

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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    Quote Originally Posted by r.e. View Post
    "WTF are you referring to" does not exactly equal "I'm simply asking you for more specificity".

    Is this a revelation to you? The exploitation of, and indeed atrocities committed against, people in a weak position, in the name of compassion, is not exactly a new phenomenon. If compassion is a sufficient/successful guide to behaviour, then there's no need for ethics, is there. Which of course is a view that has from time to time been held, with not very pretty results.
    R.E., you're right. It was poorly stated. I'm asking for specific historical data referencing "atrocities" to which you refer that are associated with "compassion". Are we talking about the Red Cross and its activities or other entities?

  7. #47

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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    Quote Originally Posted by Denis Pleic;533459+
    I don't really care for Diane Arbus or Nan Goldin, for that matter. Not to mention Larry Clark (I've came across him and "Tulsa" only recently... But, at least he was a participant, not an outside observer, so he is forgiven ).

    I respect them as photographers, but I don't care for that kind of photography.
    Where I come from, we are taught as kids that it's not polite to stare at disabled, blind, and those less fortunate than us.

    So, if you're not willing to help, at least be so polite and don't stare, please....
    This illustrates to me how if you don't understand the photographer's backgroundand motivation in supposedly "controversial" photography, it's easy to misinterpret their work.

    Nan Goldin was photographing her friends and lovers and was most definitely a participant and not simply an observer. Her self portrait after one of her lovers beat her up for example demonstrates how intimately involved her life and photography are intertwined. She's drawn to photographing them because they're such a marginalized segment of society (transexuals are marginalized even among homosexual communities, especially in the 70's where a lot of her work originated from) that she connects with, more so then "normal" society. It's because of her deep respect for the community and her friends that she doesn't bother getting model releases signed and doesn't worry about being sued by her subjects.

    Without understanding the context it's much easier for personal moral values to come into play. Somehow I doubt if either Nan Goldin or Larry Clark would lose a minutes sleep worrying about being "forgiven", they're comfortable with their lifes and so are their subjects. Inevitably some people aren't comfortable with them/their lifestyles and feel the need to censor what can or should be shown. Sometimes to defend them from exploitation, or possibly because of the moral outrage or impropriety of it all. Personally I think the more freedom we have to express ourselves, the better off we'll all be (and society will be) in the long run.

    I think the same applies as far as street photography and shooting homeless people goes. That it comes down to the photographers intent more so then the subject that dictates whether it's exploitive or documentary
    Last edited by The Lazy Painter; 8-Dec-2009 at 15:07. Reason: fixing quote

  8. #48
    Brandon Allen
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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    Denis,
    FYI: you don't need a model release to take someones photo, or even post it online. You've never seen a "well to-do business man's" photo in the news? online? on a blog? - why hasn't Madoff sued every news outlet that exists? He never signed any model release.

    I'm glad your "old fasioned" view: "I'd never take a photo of a homeless person, under any circumstances." wasn't shared by old fasioned photographers. I think Dorothea Lange's "Migrant Mother" is an amazing photograph that doesn't exploit anyone.

    I'm surprised you were so quick to judge the photographer, pointing out all his mal-intentions. You weren't there. You don't know if the subject was humiliated. He sits on the street everyday begging for money as thousands of people pass him, and one photo posted on an obscure forum is going to cause him humiliation? Some how I don't think he gives a crap.

  9. #49
    kev curry's Avatar
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    Re: Photographing the homeless...

    Well said.

    Great photography, your biker project is awesome!

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