What happens to JOBO CPP2 processor with only 1st upgrade motor?

[Oren Grad]

There are two ways to look at that I guess, I use less chemistry so tipping the drum may be needed versus using 1,000 ml to remove the anti halation coating.

I don't use more than 600ml in my 3004 and 3005 drums, and I've never had a problem with the anti-halation dye clearing.

As for producing more wear...well I know I can get the Motor rotation switch right now and it cost about 55.00 dollars. Even someone with not alot of knowledge could solder it on the circuit board if they knew the switch was the only bad problem.

That switch only regulates the voltage ramp to the motor and turns the motor on/off.
Usually the switch becomes loose or too tight when it fails....and the motor stops of course

If the motor reverses there are at least two components that a heavy drum might damage. The two of the components are on the bottom transformer board and currently cost about 100 for the parts plus three hours for me to disconnect, resolder and test the processor for return to a given customer. I am sure you can do the math at $100.00 per hour.

That's useful to know. And I do worry also about the load induced by the continual reversing - the motor does seem to labor.

The precaution of keeping the developer volume down is easy for me, as I'm not invested in processes that require dilute developers for my sheet film. Beyond that, working with bidirectional rotation, as recommended in the documentation Jobo provided with my processor, has consistently given me clean, evenly-developed negatives. In the absence of hard data on failure rates and failure modes, I'm not ready to spend a big chunk of my limited camera and darkroom time running enough tests with unidirectional drive that I could be equally confident in the results doing it that way.

By the same token, though, if doing it that way works well for somebody else, that's cool too - the "if it ain't broke don't try to fix it" rule applies just as well. There's enough voodoo in the darkroom that I can easily imagine one approach working for one person but another requiring the opposite to get good results. It wouldn't be the first time.

[John Powers]

Since I was the one who mentioned naively breaking the 1 liter barrier above let me explain how I came to do so and what has been my experience. In August 2004 I took a platinum workshop from Bob Herbst. I was using a CPP-2 with Expert drum to develop 4x5. He said I should bring pyro stained negatives to the workshop. At his suggestion I started using Rollo Pyro from Bostich & Sullivan. Though I don’t print platinum now, I have continued using Rollo Pyro primarily for the edge effect as I have moved into larger formats. I now shoot 8x10 developing them in the Expert drum and 7x17 developing two of them at a time in an extended 2500 series drum. This past year I shot 250 sheets of 7x17 and 100 sheets of 8x10. I have no idea if this is heavy or light use of the gear.

The Rollo Pyro instructions say ”We’ll describe a typical processing sequence to run five sheets of 8x10 in a Jobo drum rotating on the processor….

“Measure out 15 ml of Rollo Pyro solution A in a small graduate, 30 ml of solution B in a second graduate, and 1 liter of water in a large graduate….”. I innocently assumed they knew what they were talking about.

I have been using this mix for both 8x10 and 7x17 ever since at the volume of film mentioned above. To date there have been no problems, but of course that could fall apart tomorrow. I am careful to lift the tank with my hand rather than use the handle. I like the idea of the handle shown recently by our Australian member Large Format Pat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ5ZFld_Q0 and hope he produces those for sale. I was given a spare CPP-2 by a friend as he retired and went digital. If this breaks I certainly will reform before using that.

If it is important to anyone I will be happy to look up what version of CPP-2 I have if you will say what indicates the changes.

John

[Greg Blank]

I would say you use the processor regularly, although with 7x17 that becomes heavier usage. The offical Jobo documentation I have states that 22,000 serial numbers and above have the last and most recent upgrade of parts installed in them.

My personal processor is around 20,000 I had the new motor installed and circuitry upgraded multiple years ago. I want to say ten years ago. My experience is that
processors below 14,000 are very much a problem to refurbish.

Since I was the one who mentioned naively breaking the 1 liter barrier above let me explain how I came to do so and what has been my experience. In August 2004 I took a platinum workshop from Bob Herbst. I was using a CPP-2 with Expert drum to develop 4x5. He said I should bring pyro stained negatives to the workshop. At his suggestion I started using Rollo Pyro from Bostich & Sullivan. Though I don’t print platinum now, I have continued using Rollo Pyro primarily for the edge effect as I have moved into larger formats. I now shoot 8x10 developing them in the Expert drum and 7x17 developing two of them at a time in an extended 2500 series drum. This past year I shot 250 sheets of 7x17 and 100 sheets of 8x10. I have no idea if this is heavy or light use of the gear.

The Rollo Pyro instructions say ”We’ll describe a typical processing sequence to run five sheets of 8x10 in a Jobo drum rotating on the processor….

“Measure out 15 ml of Rollo Pyro solution A in a small graduate, 30 ml of solution B in a second graduate, and 1 liter of water in a large graduate….”. I innocently assumed they knew what they were talking about.

I have been using this mix for both 8x10 and 7x17 ever since at the volume of film mentioned above. To date there have been no problems, but of course that could fall apart tomorrow. I am careful to lift the tank with my hand rather than use the handle. I like the idea of the handle shown recently by our Australian member Large Format Pat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLJ5ZFld_Q0 and hope he produces those for sale. I was given a spare CPP-2 by a friend as he retired and went digital. If this breaks I certainly will reform before using that.

If it is important to anyone I will be happy to look up what version of CPP-2 I have if you will say what indicates the changes.

John

[don12x20]

I've run a CPP-2 since 1990.
I have run a lot of 8x10 (3005 drums), 7x17 and 12x20( official USA Jobo inserts in 3063 drums). So that's about 6500 sheets of 8x10's and around 900 7x17 (2 per tank) and 600 12x20 (1 per tank). I don't count the early 4x5s and 5x7s....

I regularly use 950-1000 ml of dilute TMax RS, HC110, and pyrocat HD(no, not in the same tank!). Tmax RS 1:15 one shot is one of the dilutions and you will need the full 1000ml to get complete development.

I run the tanks with change of direction of rotation. Yes, I do stop the drum when I want to lift it. I don't stress the motor by dropping the lift down while its operating (the Jobo guy in Chicago warned me to do this early in its life)

Fact is, I've never had to replace the motor. Only part that has needed replacement was the large center white gear -- the teeth finally wore out.

So I guess I am not experiencing the issue people are worrying about. Lucky? I don't think so. (But I do have two more new units waiting for when this one finally gives out....its cheaper than finding a motor replacment).

So who in this forum has actually lost a motor and had to replace it (and the circuit board if you couldn't get the older motor)???

And are there some of you that have heavily used their first group CPP-2 for more than ten years??? Worn the white center gear out and replaced (newer models have black gears...and the shaft attachment is quite different and they aren't interchangable parts)

I'd be real interested in hearing from anyone in one of these two groups....

Check your serial number at http://www.jobo.com/jobo_service_ana...etins/b019.htm
(according to this list, the initial production was quantity=1(just #10593), with first upgrade being units (#10594-20455). My serial number on this one is 20400. So it wasn't one of the strenghtened ones of 2nd generation....

[John Powers]

Greg, would you elaborate on “I would say you use the processor regularly, although with 7x17 that becomes heavier usage.” Are you referring to the combined number of 8x10 and 7x17 film sheets I process or the 7x17 dimensions? If you mean the dimensions, please explain. The 2500 series extended tank is no longer than a 3063 Expert tank and considerably lighter so how is this heavier use? I am just trying to better understand your comment rather than argue.

At serial number 13391 I appear to be walking the high wire. My net of course is the second unit given to me about a year ago. It was purchased new by my benefactor and has a 23847 serial number. I purchased 13391 second hand in 2004 from an Indiana dealer in used darkroom equipment on eBay whose name I have forgotten. He also was working a photo swap meet in my neighborhood (south of Cleveland) and was kind enough to deliver. He had cleaned everything up very well, but made no mention of replacing any innards. Who knows what the former owner had done. The unit came with a 2500 series extended tank which I then used for 120 film from my RZ67. When I started using the 4x5 Expert drum I had problems whose nature I have also forgotten. When explaining the symptoms to Jobo USA in Ann Arbor I was told I needed a new lift. They sent it to me and with much fumbling I was able to install it. Everything has worked well since then.

Either I have been very lucky or the problem is greatly over rated as tales and worries get retold on film forums. My hope is that revelation is not on the near horizon.

John

[Greg Blank]

I think the first paragraph of your experience is the crucial part. I suggested the very same thing further back in this thread. Not dropping the lift back down onto a moving cog is a smart approach in my view.

I have had to replace the motor of my own machine and there was a circuit upgrade done at the time. I also have replaced a few for customers of Omega Satter, generally the circuitry dies before the actual motor but the motors do loose strength with age, as the brushes inside get carbon on them from use. I recall most recently I had one motor very badly rusted and it was shot beyond repairs, the PC boards were also quite bad - I attribute that though from careless chemical pouring. If you had seen the machine exterior you would have to aggree.

I've run a CPP-2 since 1990.

I run the tanks with change of direction of rotation. Yes, I do stop the drum when I want to lift it. I don't stress the motor by dropping the lift down while its operating (the Jobo guy in Chicago warned me to do this early in its life)

Fact is, I've never had to replace the motor. Only part that has needed replacement was the large center white gear -- the teeth finally wore out.

So who in this forum has actually lost a motor and had to replace it (and the circuit board if you couldn't get the older motor)???

[Greg Blank]

Hi John;

I was looking at the 7x17 and thinking you were using the big 24x20 print drum for that, I did not see in your other post that you used a 2500 series drum.

Greg, would you elaborate on “I would say you use the processor regularly, although with 7x17 that becomes heavier usage.” Are you referring to the combined number of 8x10 and 7x17 film sheets I process or the 7x17 dimensions? If you mean the dimensions, please explain. The 2500 series extended tank is no longer than a 3063 Expert tank and considerably lighter so how is this heavier use? I am just trying to better understand your comment rather than argue.

At serial number 13391 I appear to be walking the high wire. My net of course is the second unit given to me about a year ago. It was purchased new by my benefactor and has a 23847 serial number. I purchased 13391 second hand in 2004 from an Indiana dealer in used darkroom equipment on eBay whose name I have forgotten. He also was working a photo swap meet in my neighborhood (south of Cleveland) and was kind enough to deliver. He had cleaned everything up very well, but made no mention of replacing any innards. Who knows what the former owner had done. The unit came with a 2500 series extended tank which I then used for 120 film from my RZ67. When I started using the 4x5 Expert drum I had problems whose nature I have also forgotten. When explaining the symptoms to Jobo USA in Ann Arbor I was told I needed a new lift. They sent it to me and with much fumbling I was able to install it. Everything has worked well since then.

Either I have been very lucky or the problem is greatly over rated as tales and worries get retold on film forums. My hope is that revelation is not on the near horizon.

John

[don12x20]

I think the first paragraph of your experience is the crucial part. I suggested the very same thing further back in this thread. Not dropping the lift back down onto a moving cog is a smart approach in my view.

I have had to replace the motor of my own machine and there was a circuit upgrade done at the time. I also have replaced a few for customers of Omega Satter, generally the circuitry dies before the actual motor but the motors do loose strength with age, as the brushes inside get carbon on them from use. I recall most recently I had one motor very badly rusted and it was shot beyond repairs, the PC boards were also quite bad - I attribute that though from careless chemical pouring. If you had seen the machine exterior you would have to aggree.

Good to hear from someone who has replaced....questions: just in case, have you seen any current BMW motors that would fit? And I presume that the circuit board is discrete rather than surface mount?(I haven't seen a need to open mine...).
thanks
Don

[Greg Blank]

The small motors for wipers in theory could work, but the shafts I am pretty sure are custom made, although a good mechinist could gage an existing motor and copy the spec. The motors are DC-24 Volts. When I install a new one it requires calibration with the motor speed switch, the motor typically has what I call a flat spot that needs to be adjusted out, otherwise there is a hestitation and then the motor will speed up.
The motor attaches to the Transformer board with two wires and a ground wire goes to the motors outer casing.

Discrete.

Good to hear from someone who has replaced....questions: just in case, have you seen any current BMW motors that would fit? And I presume that the circuit board is discrete rather than surface mount?(I haven't seen a need to open mine...).
thanks
Don

[Cymen]

There is also this interesting page:

http://tech-diy.com/jobo.htm

The suggestion is to replace the Jobo motor controller that alters the motor speed by voltage with a more modern controller that uses pulses of voltage at the full voltage (24v) to control the speed. The argument for this is that running large drums at low speeds with the original controller wears out the motor because the low speed means low voltage. Low voltage with the original controller means lack of torque due to reduced current. Using the pulse width modulation controller to slow down the motor while using the max amount of current (in pulses) does not suffer the same issue.

I'm going to test this theory out. I purchased a PWM-based motor controller board from eBay (24 VDC, supports reversal just like original controller, knob to alter speed with pot) for about $35 shipped from China. I've got a really early CPP-2 -- the serial number is in the 2000 range I believe and it is well used. I purchased a lift and the 3010 expert drum but after reading about all the potential problems, I decided to swap the motor controller before putting it to use.

The linked web page addresses this for the CPE-2. I'm assuming it is the same for the early CPP-2 and CPA-2 models. I haven't removed the circuit boards to get at the output of the transformer that should be converting 120 VAC to 24 VDC.