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Thread: A Challenge to the Forum

  1. #1

    A Challenge to the Forum

    Hi Everyone,

    A few posts back there was a guy announced he had just bought his first LF packa ge and as near as I can figure this outfit cost close to $4K. When I read this it struck me that it was a lot of money to enter a format that someone may not h ave had any experience and that it gave the impression that LF photography is on e for the well off.

    It also struck me that at a time when products for large format photography are being discontinued by major manufacturers we as a group have an obligation to en courage people to at least try the field. If the impression is that it costs th ousands of dollars to enter LF than we can only expect the number of LF photogra phers to either diminish or remain relatively the same. In other words we as a buying group will become weaker and the range of products available to us will c ontinue shrink as manufacturers find more profitable markets.

    So my challenge to the forum is this:

    Propose a beginners complete LF package that can be purchased for under $900.

    Why $900, for the same reason things cost $19.99. Psychologically it means a lo t to be under $1000. If we get a good set of responses maybe it can be made par t of the site as a buying guide.

    Good Luck and Thanks

  2. #2

    A Challenge to the Forum

    Kevin:

    Challenge taken.

    I just bought a lightly used Graflex Super Speed Graphic with a very good coated German lens for $750 Cdn, including case and film holders. A very good used Manfrotto tripod can easily be had for less than 150 US so there is a first rate 4x5 outfit for less than 600 US.

    With all due respect, a new Ebony, Sinar or Gandolfi is a waste for a newcomer. Learning how to load film, focus, then learn the movements can all be done on a used good camera. Also, a selection of lenses other than a single 135 mm or 210 mm or so is a needless distraction.

    Spend a few hundred bucks on some outdated film, a daylight processing box and a light meter and then "Watch out Minor White/ John Sexton/ Richard Avedon/or even Robert Mapplethorpe".

    If I were offering it for sale, I have a fully functional Iston wood field camera with a Wollensak barely coated lens and I would offer it for $300 US, with 2 holders. It works just fine. But of cours, I would not offer anything for sale on this site.

    Cheers

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Posts
    769

    A Challenge to the Forum

    Heaps and heaps of ways to do it. One way - a decent condition Graphic 4x5 can be had for $300 or so (a used Meridian for about $500, maybe even a used Tech III). A used Fuji 150 mm can be had for aboput $200 - 300. A 100mm wide field Ektar for about $200. A set of 6 film holders (in 4x5, not too expensive even new). A Toyo loupe about $40. A cheap light meter like a Weston or even a used Gossen, less than $100. A tripod (pick up a wooden Bromwell for about $150 or troll eBay for cheaper and older wood tripods).

    Even 8x10 can be managed on this kind of budget. I started with a Kodak 2D (paid about $300), a triple convertible Gundlach rectigraphic (about $150), six used film holders (about $100). You can even cough up for more recent glass like a Protar series or a Symmar convertible.

    It can be done and with less quality impacts than in some other formats. My Gundlach rectigraphic gave me pictures that look as sharp in contact prints as more modern glass. Cheers, DJ.

  4. #4

    A Challenge to the Forum

    Kevin, at that price you're looking at used equipment, and there are steady offerings on both e-bay and the photo.net classifieds. I'm sure there are quality used kits available at some of the dealers as well. As to specifics, others have mentioned some popular timeless offerings that would serve a beginner as well as a higher priced kit. I'm currently looking for a lower priced kit myself ( wooden field, 90-135 lens ) so I'll let you know how I make out. Regards, Mike

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Jan 2001
    Posts
    522

    A Challenge to the Forum

    I couldn't agree with you more here, Kevin....as a pro who uses LF gear, I'm always dumbfounded at some of the setups people write about getting started with....if they could see the kind of equipment and age of it that we use in our studio, and even at other places I've worked in as an assistant.....I recently upgraded my 4x5 stuff at home, when Calumet started discounting the 45NX....you can get one new for $750 now....or the cheaper model for a hundred or so less. Or any number of older Toyos and Omegas on the market used.....that's what we use here, a newer Toyo GII model, and an absolutely ancient Omega D that just refuses to die!

    My bid on a new setup would be a beginner Cambo/Calumet kit or the Toyo entry level monorail. Any decent used monorail as well, but try to price accesories like lensboards, bag bellows etc. before taking the plunge into the more expensive brands....all the little things can really add up after awhile. Probably the best place to start would be in learning to load a holder first, then think about buying a camera.....

  6. #6

    A Challenge to the Forum

    Dear Kevin;

    You raise some interesting thoughts. As for my own experience, I have had a view camera for about 10 years, but it was resting comfortably on a shelf in my basement. When I originally got the camera, I had gone out and added all those accessories I could buy new and some I found in the camera store in their used area. I found it difficult to build my system. I shot some images, but never delved deeply into LF at that time. Most of my work was medium format or 6x17 panoramic (I guess that is 'kinda' shooting large forat).

    Last year, a friend induced me to look at Ebay and start tracking all of the camera products being offered. I ended up buying a high end 35mm digital which re-awakened a passion for photography. Not just digital, but also causing me to shoot more film in my medium, panoramic, but especially large format cameras. Then I put two and two together and looked at the large format listings. All of a sudden, I am bidding on and winning auctions to buy those bits and pieces of equipment for my large format camera that I previously could not afford or maybe couldn't find. I have even bought stereo cameras via Ebay-when was the last time you thought about taking those kind of images. In a way, I think Ebay may be a tremendous asset to LF. Think of all those people who have had cameras they wanted to sell, but the prices offered when they went to re-sellers was not enough so they decided to just keep them in the box. Ebay gives them an outlet and the market determines the price which advantages both buyer and seller. I think it is easier and more convenient than scouring the used departments or waiting for ads in magazines that maybe were placed months ago. Put on top of this, forums like we are in where people from all over the country are giving advice, asking questions and mutually assisting each other. I felt like I was alone a decade ago and did not now where to turn for answers other than my local camera store-now I find friends and others who genuinely want to help me no matter how simple my needs.

    Perhaps LF is being eclipsed in the commercial market-that can be a whole discussion by itself. Digital is certainly digging into the sales of film products and that trend is continuing. However, for people with a passion for taking pictures and for those enjoying the mystery and art of photography, there may be benefits in this revolution of technology. True, products and companies are disappearing at an unfortunately too quick rate, but the ranks may be strong as ever.

    Thank you for helping me to think about these issues.

    Regards,

    John

  7. #7

    A Challenge to the Forum

    Kevin, As you have probably gathered by now prices of LF or any photographic gear for that matter is not a reliable indicator. It all depends on what the buyer is prepared to pay, what type of gear they are prepared to consider (some people have strange and strong preconceptions) and whether they know where to look. I picked up a good Horseman LS at a liquidation sale for just over $100, a Schneider 150mm / 265mm lens on eBay for $150 and a set of five film backs for less than $30 from the same auction site. I am sure that others have also bucked the shop prices and acquired decent LF gear at knock down prices.

    Clive

  8. #8

    A Challenge to the Forum

    DK, I agree. LF equipment just doesn't wear out too often. I have been using a mix of old and new equipment for nearly 40 years. It's just tools and I use whatever I have or can afford.

    Don't knock those who buy new and get up. They are the suppliers of the good, barely used, equipment that ebay is filled with. Those of us who actually use the stuff need these people to take the edge off of the new prices for us.

    But to the point of the thread, I always recommend that beginers get a Graphic or Busch press camera and use it for awhile before going to a view camera. You can get this outfit: camera with 135mm lens, 90mm angulon, some used holders, and a meter = $500 or less which is about the price of that new digital snapshot camera that will be obsolete in three years. When they do get ready for the view camera, I recommend a Graphic view to start. It's cheap, sturdy, and small and they can use their existing lenses. When it is time to step up to the "big time" cameras you can get every penny back from your investment in these old cameras. Try getting a 100% return from that $4K wizzband deluxe outfit! Meanwhile, you have just given yourself thousands of dollars of education. wf

  9. #9

    A Challenge to the Forum

    >> Don't knock those who buy new and get up. <<

    Sorry, I meant to say: Don't knock those who buy new and then get out of LF.

    wf

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Jun 2000
    Location
    Redondo Beach
    Posts
    547

    A Challenge to the Forum

    It could have been me you were referring to, since I mentioned the cash outlay involved in my move up to LF, in comparing the relative start-up costs between 35/MF, LF, and Digital gear. It was closer to 5 grand, and while I would be the first one to agree that that is a lot of money, it's nowhere near top of the scale for LF. I certaily agree that you can get into LF for a lot less, but my situation was and is different. I'm new to LF, but don't consider myself a biginner.

    Even if you were not referring to me I still think you have to take this on an individual basis. I totally agree that folks should know that you can get into LF for a lot less than I did. It would not be a good idea to spend 5 grand on a 'tryout', but in my case I was past that.

    I've done this most of my adult life, fell in love w/the idea of doing the alternative processes, and contact printing w/POP paper. After thirty years of Portrait/People/Street scene work, this is a logical growth step for me and I can use my LF gear for my business and personal work.

    I audited this forum for a year and researched the LF equipment I wanted and where I could get it at the lowest price. I could have easily ended up getting a LF outfit for a lot less than I did.

    I had always wanted a Toyo 810MII, and one hit the market brand new, for about $1500.00 less than what the dealers were willing to sell it to me for at the exact same time I had decided to make the move. The camera was for sale for about the same price as a used one and it was get it now or pass. One of my better decisions 'cause I love this camera. This camera will be with me for life.

    I didn't start out with the mind set, 'I think I'll blow 5 grand on a LF outfit'. The camera was $3300, I got a Docter Optics 360mm F6.7 Tessar for $737.00 from Mr Cad, and a Wollensak Velostigmat 300mm F4.5 SF for $285.00. I didn't 'splurge' moneywise and everything was 'cut to the bone', and after getting some invaluable feedback about the Toyo 810MII from Dave Anton, I got the camera while the 'getting was good'.

    You can easily get into LF for less than $1000.00 if you're willing to wait, and pick your spots, and I mentioned my LF budget in the context of its comparison to digital gear.
    Jonathan Brewer

    www.imageandartifact.bz

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