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Thread: DOF, f-values & sharpness

  1. #11
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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    An example may help illustrate these points. Let's choose two extremes--the 24x36 DSLR you are used to and, say, an 8x10 view camera. And let's say we are going to make a full-face portrait. And, to maintain simplicity, we'll limit ourselves to a "normal" lens with a focal length approximating the diameter of the image frame.

    Let's start with the 8x10. If I make a full-face portrait on 8x10, that face may be, say, five inches tall on the film. The actual face may be 10 inches tall in real life, so my image on the film is a 2:1 magnification. With a 12-inch lens, that means the lens will be about 24 inches from the subject's face.

    That photo is nearly in the macro range, and we all know that at macro magnifications, the depth of field is really narrow. According to DOFmaster, at f/9, the depth of field will extend from 1.99 feet to 2.01 feet.

    Now, I could put a 300mm lens on my Canon 5D, and the magnification would be exactly the same. So would the depth of field. But here's the problems with doing that: 1.) I'd need a bunch of extension tubes to get that 300mm lens to focus, and 2.) I'd only be able to include the tip of the nose in the picture. I could back up the camera to include the whole face, but then it wouldn't be the same picture. So, I have to use a shorter lens.

    With a 50mm (2-inch) lens, I can make pretty much the same picture. With the camera in the same position, the 2-inch lens will make an image on my 24x36 frame about 0.8 inches tall. That's a magnification of 1:24--not at all close to the macro range. To get similar depth of field as what I was able to get at 1:2 with the 8x10 camera and its 300mm f/9 lens, I need something a hair faster than f/1.0, which is currently not in Canon's lineup.

    And if I used a 300/5.6 lens on my 8x10 camera, there is no lens made for 35mm that is fast enough to provide a similar selective focus effect.

    Now that we have established incredibly narrow depth of field using the large format, we have another advantage for the stuff that IS in focus. A given print will be enlarged only 1/8 as much. So, if an 8x10 print is my goal, the 24x36 image will require an 8x enlargement, but I can make a contact print from the 8x10 negative.

    Thus, a full-face portrait with 8x10 will have considerably less depth of field and therefore much greater selective focus (if that's what I want), but in the focus plane, it will provide far greater resolution and contrast on a given size print. The results border on the mystical. People try to simulate the effect using tilt lenses on their small cameras and the like, but it's just not the same.

    I have an old Ilex 8-1/2" f/4.5 lens. It's a Tessar formula--nothing at all fancy by today's standards. It's slightly longer than normal on my 4x5 camera, which I like for portraits. Despite that it's an old hunk of junk, I keep it because of that f/4.5 aperture. At f/4.5, I can get an effect impossible with small format and very similar to my 8x10 camera with the f/9 lens. No, the lens isn't that sharp when used wide open, but I may only be enlarging it by a factor of 2, so it doesn't have to be.

    To me, managing what is in focus and out of focus has a greater effect on the look of a photo than just about any other decision we make. The large-format cameras give us huge control over that decision, beyond what we can do with small format. Even when we want everything sharp (which, for me, is most of the time), getting it so with a small camera is often impossible because we'd need f/32 and, even assuming our lens goes down that far, we can't live with the fuzzy diffractive mess that results. But with careful camera tilts and swings, we can usually provide the sharpness we need where we need it, even considering that we have less depth of field. And it takes a mighty small aperture to ruin a large-format image with too much diffraction.

    Rick "finding cameras without movements to be pretty limiting for landscape applications" Denney

  2. #12

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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    Thanks a BUNCH, Rick! I think it's very nice of you to explain all this. Might be all common to you guys but it's mostly Abakradabra for me. But I'm starting to understand it all bit by bit!

    Actually, I just ordered book 1-3 from the Ansel Adams collection (The Camera, The Negative & The Print). Think that'll help me out a bit further :-)

  3. #13

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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    What the OP is perhaps referring to is taking a large, fast aperture WWII Aero Ektar and mating it to Speed Graphic for a very narrow depth of field portraiture effect with pleasing bokeh.

  4. #14

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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    Anonomatos, I have one tiny bit of wisdom I would like to pass on: DO NOT get caught up in trying to "understand" or measure DOF. It is probably the #1 most contentious issue in photography, ahead of even "digital vs film." Most photographers have an intuitive understanding about how DOF works (and even agree!), but when they start to try to define and talk about it, it gets ugly, especially online.

    All you need to know is what Rick wrote: 300mm f/9 in 8x10 will look roughly similar to 50mm f/1.0 in 135. They both will have extremely shallow DOF.

    If you're interested in portraits, that's all you need to know. Stop there! If you want to do landscapes, you will likely read about airy discs, hyperfocal distances, viewing distances, enlargement percentages and "circle of confusion" (which is most aptly named photo term ever). In other words, this way lies madness. My advice if you want to do landscapes is: f/32, tilt until everything is pretty much in focus, plug your ears and yell "lalalalalalala" as you trip the shutter.

  5. #15
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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by bensyverson View Post
    My advice if you want to do landscapes is: f/32, tilt until everything is pretty much in focus, plug your ears and yell "lalalalalalala" as you trip the shutter.
    And if that doesn't work, print smaller, because probably nothing would have worked.

    Rick "who might go to f/45 in a pinch, because 'out-of-focus' is worse than 'diffraction'" Denney

  6. #16

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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    Yeah, it's a bit confusion all the tables.
    I talked to a guy in a shop (I guess one of the few shops in NL which sells and buys LF equipment and deliver parts from stock) and he explained it a bit more. His conclusion was also not to get too much caught up, he said: "Just try shooting wide open and try more from there on." He's prolly right

  7. #17

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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    With respect to the other very good posts on this topic, I've sometimes found it confusing to try and understand the way DOF is effected by camera distance to subject and lens selection. If you stand farther away or closer to a subject or if you select a different lens it is true that DOF field changes. The problem is that you are also changing what is framed in the image. If you are doing a headshot with a tele lens standing far back or if you are doing that same headshot with a wide standing close in, the DOF in the frame will remain the same. So in reality DOF is effected by camera to subject distance and lens selection, but in practice it isn't always the case ... Keeping this in mind the thing that is most important to me is selecting the appropriate lens for a given job - the rest seems to fall into place.

  8. #18

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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    rdenny's example above stated a 5" image on film of a 10" face is 2:1. Wouldn't that be 1:2 instead (half life size)? Nevertheless it's still going to be a shallow DOF, but not quite as razor thin.

  9. #19
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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by Ivan J. Eberle View Post
    rdenny's example above stated a 5" image on film of a 10" face is 2:1. Wouldn't that be 1:2 instead (half life size)? Nevertheless it's still going to be a shallow DOF, but not quite as razor thin.
    Yes, 1:2. You knew what I meant.

    Rick "razor thin = one eye in focus, everything else not, unless the swing lines up the eyes" Denney

  10. #20
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    Re: DOF, f-values & sharpness

    Quote Originally Posted by March View Post
    With respect to the other very good posts on this topic, I've sometimes found it confusing to try and understand the way DOF is effected by camera distance to subject and lens selection. If you stand farther away or closer to a subject or if you select a different lens it is true that DOF field changes. The problem is that you are also changing what is framed in the image. If you are doing a headshot with a tele lens standing far back or if you are doing that same headshot with a wide standing close in, the DOF in the frame will remain the same. So in reality DOF is effected by camera to subject distance and lens selection, but in practice it isn't always the case ... Keeping this in mind the thing that is most important to me is selecting the appropriate lens for a given job - the rest seems to fall into place.
    To make the same picture from the same camera location with a larger format requires a longer lens and therefore higher magnifications. That's what makes the depth of field less unless you stop down to a smaller aperture to compensate.

    Rick "suggesting DOFmaster for making theoretical comparisons, but preferring a loupe and a ground glass for seeing the difference in real life" Denney

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