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Thread: Center Filter Requirements

  1. #1

    Center Filter Requirements

    Why do certain Rodenstock and Schneider wide angle lenses require center filters whereas Nikon lenses do not? Is it a design issue specific with the manufacture r or should you use a center filter with all wide angle lenses. I have several N ikon super wide angle lenses (120 and 150SW) and have not noticed fall off probl ems, although I only shoot B&W. Thanks

  2. #2

    Center Filter Requirements

    Michael, I have wondered the same for a long time, I have a 65 mm for my 4x5 and I have never seen fall off, like you I only shoot B&W but I used it once to take a city scape with fuji velvia and the results were beautiful, no light fall off at all. Since this lens barely covers 4x5 I imagined I would have seen the fall off easily.

    In a previous thread I comented on this that nikkors do not seem to need this center filter and some smart ass answered "physics do not change, designs are all the same" I decided not to argue with this guys since obviously he has not used the nikkors and was obviously unaware that designs are not "all" the same. In any case I guess I am not answering your question, but I concurr with you. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than me will enlighten us.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
    Posts
    740

    Center Filter Requirements

    Just a thought, but your 65mm may show fall-off only when you apply movements to the camera. Lens specs, especially from Schneider, tend to underestimate the covering power of their lenses by a fair margin. Your lens may just about cover the 5x4 format as long as you do not apply movements. Also, vignetting will be more noticeable on expanses of blue sky than other subjects. As I said, just some thoughts!! Regards Paul

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Oct 2001
    Posts
    21

    Center Filter Requirements

    I spent 30 minutes looking for any obvious explanation on the internet. I found reviews for 65mm and 75mm Nikkors in which the users commented on obvious falloff, but which they reasoned was to be expected with any wide angle lenses. I know this goes against Jorge's experience with the 65mm lens. I think that Michael might not notice it with his 120 and 150 lenses because of the greater coverage and the fact that falloff is greater with shorter focal length wide angle lenses. I use a 90mm Schneider, and falloff is not a big problem unless I'm pushing the coverage of the lens, and especially when the subject is evenly lit.

    I think that Nikon lenses probably need the filters as much as lenses made by other manufacturers do, but the confusion arises from the fact that Nikon does not choose to make Nikon brand center filters available. However, since filters made by Hoya and others will fit the Nikon lenses, this is not a problem. I couldn't find anything to support Nikon lenses being magically less susceptible to falloff, but it is an interesting question that has crossed my mind before.

  5. #5

    Center Filter Requirements

    I have just bought a Nikkor-SW 150mm lens, and have noticed the lack of fall off - several times I have used it right to the edge of the image circle, and it just dies, over 1/4" or so, with almost no darkening before the severe drop-off.

    Why? I suspect it has to be because of the lens design; when you stop the lens down (to say f/22) and look at the lens opening on an axis, it visually looks like a proper circle, not an elongated oval, like some other lenses. I suspect this is why the fall-off is limited; the lens is designed so the aperture looks like a proper circle form any angle.

  6. #6

    Center Filter Requirements

    Paul:

    I agree with you, but with the 65 mm mounted on a 4x5 you only have about 10 mm movement before you loose coverage, of course this is wide open, I imagine I have a little bit more when I stop down, but nevetheless I am unable to see light fall off. I have used this lens with the minimal movements I can get and still I am unable to see this problem.

    Don:

    I thought the same thing, since Nikon never mention this I thought they were operating under the phylosophy of "is easy to ignore a problem if you don't know one exists" :-))) But then before I bought my lens I asked the Nikon rep in Houston to let me borrow her lens because she had told me they did not need a center filter as the Schniders do. As I put it to the test I was never able to notice a problem. Again maybe is because I only shoot B&W and the one color slide I shot was without movements, but still, with such a border line coverage I was sure to see the light fall off. I don't know maybe I got lucky and got the one magical lens..lol.

  7. #7

    Join Date
    Mar 1999
    Posts
    24

    Center Filter Requirements

    the nikon lens tech i taked to stated that all thier sw lense designs compensate for "wide angle fall off" elliminating the need for using a center fi lter. i've been using my nikor 90sw f4.5 on my 6x17 and a nikor 150sw f8 on 8x10 without any falloff problem.

  8. #8

    Center Filter Requirements

    Jorge,

    If you are referring to the thread titled:

    CF for Nikon 65mm/4.0 - comments please?

    http://hv.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=005vBH

    Then I appear to be the so-called "smart ass" who refuses to ignore the laws of physics WRT to light fall-off with wide angle lenses - regardless of brand name. Sensitivity to fall-off is extremely subjective. It varies greatly from perso n to person, but is also a function of the materials, subject and lighting. In my reply in the previous thread, I was not trying to be a "smart ass", just shar ing my experience. Just because my experience, needs and opinions differ from y ours does not make you right and me wrong, or vice versa. This is a subjective matter where people of differing needs can, and do, come to differing conclusion s. You may not agree with what I say, but that alone does not make me a "smart ass" for stating my opinion and sharing my experience.

    That said, I admit that I have no experience with the 65mm f4 Nikkor SW. Howeve r, I have used the 75mm f4.5 Nikkor SW extensively, and for MY NEEDS, I found a center filter absolutely necessary. Both lenses are of the same design, and sin ce fall-off is a function of angle, the 65mm should be even worse in this respec t than the 75mm of like design.

    Fall-off will be much more noticeable with high contrast color transparency film s than black and white films or even color print films. Since I shoot 100% with color transparency films these days, I find a center filter necessary for MY ne eds with the 75mm Nikkor SW. You shoot black and white and do not find a center filter necessary for YOUR needs with your 65mm Nikkor SW.

    Different users + different needs = different conclusions. No surprise there. If you go back and re-read the previous thread in question, you will see that ot her posters who have actual experience with the 65mm Nikkor SW find the center f ilter necessary for THEIR needs. Again, different users with different needs. You will probably see the same thing in this thread - some will state that they find a center filter necessary with the Nikkor lenses, you will say that they do not. This is obviously an area where reasonable minds can disagree (without re sorting to name calling over a difference of opinion). The only real way any pa rticular user can decide if the center filter is necessary is to shoot some test shots with their lens, their materials and their subjects and examine the resul ts with their eyes and decide if they find the fall-off objectionable. Once the y have done this, it matters not what you, I or the laws of physics say. They w ill have the answer that best suits their needs. There is no magic involved, ju st a simple test.

    BTW, I'm not knocking the Nikkor SW wide angles here. In fact, I think they are fantasic. IMHO, they offer outstanding sharpness and great coverage combined w ith relatively compact size and light weight. All things I consider highly desi rable in any lens.

    Kerry

  9. #9

    Center Filter Requirements

    Oops, typo in my previous reply.

    I wrote:

    "You will probably see the same thing in this thread - some will state that the y find a center filter necessary with the Nikkor lenses, you will say that they do not."

    What I meant was:

    You will probably see the same thing in this thread - some will state that they find a center filter necessary with the Nikkor lenses, others will say that th ey do not.

    Kerry

  10. #10

    Center Filter Requirements

    Kerry:

    I dont know if it was you or not, in any case you are a frequent poster in this board and always very helpfull, if this is the case and it was you then I apologize for the characterization, I did not mean to offend you. BUT, I agree with you that sensitivity might come in play, on the other hand when you use a densitometer to measur side to side density and it only varies by .05 then I think I am ruling this out. I took a pic of a gray wall with the lens defocused and after developemtn in JOBO expert drums I took the densities....so, I dont know, maybe like I said before I got a magical lens....:-))

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