Black and White Printing

[Brian Ellis]

I have two printers, one is color, the other b&w. They are both profiled to the hilt. The b&w on the color machine is dead neutral. I have made numerous prints using it. It's a 1-color d'Vinci system, superior to what the Epson K3 inks can do.

Truthfully, there are occasions when a really nice print can be made in this way. However, if you want to create a print with a lot of atmosphere, you can see that the transitions between the tones just aren't there. One wouldn't want to do a photo with mist in it, for example.

Lenny

Actually I didn't ask what system you used or for a comparison of your system with Epson K3 inks. I asked about the extent of your experience with K3 inks and QTR. I asked because you've made some fairly emphatic statements about the inability of any color system to match dedicated b&w inks. And since I think Epson K3 inks with QTR is the best of the color systems, it seemed appropriate to ask about your experience with that combination. If you don't want to answer, that's fine, there's no need to answer. I don't want to sound antagonistic or get into an argument so I'll just drop the subject at this point. Thanks again for the response.

[bvstaples]

Sometimes it's more expensive to make those old printers with all those expensive RIPs and inksets to catch up to the new printers that really aren't that expensive to begin with.

FWIW, I printed commercially in a wet darkroom for about 30 years when about 10-12 years ago I got turned on to working in the "daylight" and never looked back. IMO the papers that are available today aren't close to the papers we had back then. Digital printing is just getting better everyday.

I like working in the darkroom for the shear pleasure of the mechanical process. But you're correct that digital is fantastic stuff these days.

After working for about two months to get my 1280/MIS/QTR system tweaked, I just printed some outstanding stuff yesterday. And someday I will move up to a better printer and CIS, but for right now I just don't have the cash. Sometimes we just have to work with what we have.

Brian

[Tyler Boley]

Cone had a number of issues in years past... ...In fairness though, I think those issues are in the past and if they exist with the present inks I haven't heard about it.

by the way Brian, I wasn't picking on you, your post just gave me the opportunity to get some "stuff" out...

Tyler

[Chris Strobel]

I have an old Epson 1160.I started with Jon Cones inks on it, then switched to MIS inks.I still run it with MIS inks to this day printing on photorag 308.I also bought an Epson 4800 2 years ago, and use velvet fine art with ABW mode.When the prints are mounted and framed behind glass I can't tell which printer did which.

[Brian Ellis]

Brian,

This is quite telling. If one is after the look of a Sexton print, then color inks and glossier paper is in order.

It wouldn't be my favorite. But that's not a value judgement, he's a nice guy, it's just up to everyone's taste......

Lenny

I actually use matte paper mostly. I'm not aware that I'm trying for "the look" of a Sexton print. I'm not even sure what "look" that would be except that I think he's an excellent printer and I try to make excellent prints.

[Greg Lockrey]

I like working in the darkroom for the shear pleasure of the mechanical process. But you're correct that digital is fantastic stuff these days.

After working for about two months to get my 1280/MIS/QTR system tweaked, I just printed some outstanding stuff yesterday. And someday I will move up to a better printer and CIS, but for right now I just don't have the cash. Sometimes we just have to work with what we have.

Brian

I'm with you there.. myself I've been looking at the carbon transfer process. As an artist foremost I like the idea of getting my hands into the work. But to make a living I try to be as "lazy" as I can and go as inexpensively as possible and meet the client's requirements. There is a lot of hype that has to be analyzed because mistakes get very expnsive fast. It's hard to determine your needs without knowing at what level you may be. I try to help others based on the path that I took that is successful for my needs so that you don't have to make some of the mistakes I made along the way.

[Ed Richards]

If you want to get great prints with the minimum amount of pain, get a 3800 and print with the ABW setting, using Harmon FB glossy, regular or warm. This even beats my very expensive RIP. Harmon FB glossy is the best glossy black and white paper I have found, if you want the look of a classic neutral silver print. I am not saying that this the solution for any other paper, it just happens that the ABW setting for Epson Glossy is a perfect match to Harmon. (I even had the RIP maker do a custom profile for my printer, and it still was not as good.)

If you like to screw with equipment, go for a third party ink solution. If you want to print on matte paper, get a water color kit.:-)

More seriously, paper is more important than printers, in that you need different solutions for different papers. I have seen nothing that beats Epson ABW on Harmon Glossy FB for the look of traditional silver glossy dried matte prints. But if you want a different look, esp. for matte papers or textured papers, you may need a different solution entirely.

Ed

[Michael Gordon]

If you like to screw with equipment, go for a third party ink solution.

I can't speak for other systems, but as aforementioned, Cone K7 inks, QTR, and any supported Epson printer provides a virtually plug and play experience. There is no screwing with equipment.

[Michael Gordon]

Thanks for your response. My quarrel with your earlier post wasn't with your opinion that Cone inks produce better prints than other inks/RIPs. You're entitled to your opinion. It was with the "blows out of the water" (and "discerning printers") stuff.

I tried to temper the "discerning printers" humor with a smiley, but I guess it didn't work. I was being facetious, Brian. Otherwise, I myself would not have been a "discerning printer" until I had converted to Cone

As for "blows out of the water", I still stand by it. It is my opinion, and I have made the comparisons using my own prints. If I didn't believe the quality of the prints were worth it, I would simplify and save money and use one printer for everything.

I have, however, seen a lot of prints made with Cone inks as I mentioned in my earlier message. They were very fine prints but not IMHO better than what I can do with QTR and K3 inks, certainly not on an order of "blows everything out of the water" magnitude.

Have you made any same-image side-by-side comparisons of K3/QTR with K7/QTR?

I'll just paraphrase what Tyler Boley said in a previous message, that regardless of the particular system one chooses to use, this is a great time to be a serious b&w printer with the many wonderful tools available to us.

I agree!

[h2oman]

As someone who intends in the next year to start printing B&W on an inkjet, I have enjoyed this thread. It is clear that there is no single answer as to what to do, because one is working with a variety of parameters. If all I wanted to do is print B&W I think I would try the Cone inks, but I may wish to have coor capability out of the same printer, in which case going with the standard Epson inks would be my choice most likely.

Which brings up a question: how difficult is it to change back and forth from the Cone inkset to the Epson K3 inks? would it be reasonable for a person to just stockpile printing jobs, stay color for a couple months, then change to B&W for a couple months, etc?