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Thread: National Fotocolor One-Shot Camera

  1. #31
    Drew Wiley
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    Re: National Fotocolor One-Shot Camera

    The kind of beamsplitter I was referring to is a special single-piece prism which splits
    all three (or four) beams simultaneously. This kind of glass could be differentially
    multicoated or used with separate filters. In other words, if someone had a lot of
    machining capability, time, and money they could come up with a tricolor camera a lot
    more sophisticated and precise than anything from the past. You would also want
    registered vacuum film positions. Simple project in theory but nervewracking in execution. Would weigh a lot and probably no one will ever build one. Just a fun idea
    I've long had. As for carbon printing, I believe it could also be modernized by thinking
    outside the box, using a whole new class of pigments and a different tanning regimen
    for the gelatin; but again, no one is going to have the time or budget to do this, let
    alone a potential market for the materials. Sad. Such a beautiful process. What is being done with the older tricolor cameras typically requires a faster film for the blue
    separation than for the red and green. Try 100TM for R&G and 400TM for the B. It is
    easier to get matched separations with these films than with the older Super XX, which
    had problems building enough contrast with the blue separation. Photoshop simplifies
    things, but I have demonstrated to myself that very precise separations can still be made the old-fashioned way vis darkroom alond, indeed, much better than in the "good old days" themselves. Time-consuming to learn, however.

  2. #32

    Join Date
    Sep 2003
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    South Carolina
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    Re: National Fotocolor One-Shot Camera

    Actually carbon printing was modernized a lot by Charles Bergger and Richard Kauffman with the Ultrastable color carbon method, which used pin registration (in lieu of the registration and assembly by eye done in the old days) and a diazo based sensitizer that was incorporated into the sensitizer. Evercolor was also a modernized version of color carbon. Ultrastable pigment papers are no longer made commercially but a few photographers, Tod Gangler in Seattle and John Bentley in Toronto, make their own materials and print following the method, with variations they have introduced.

    Sandy


    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    The kind of beamsplitter I was referring to is a special single-piece prism which splits
    all three (or four) beams simultaneously. This kind of glass could be differentially
    multicoated or used with separate filters. In other words, if someone had a lot of
    machining capability, time, and money they could come up with a tricolor camera a lot
    more sophisticated and precise than anything from the past. You would also want
    registered vacuum film positions. Simple project in theory but nervewracking in execution. Would weigh a lot and probably no one will ever build one. Just a fun idea
    I've long had. As for carbon printing, I believe it could also be modernized by thinking
    outside the box, using a whole new class of pigments and a different tanning regimen
    for the gelatin; but again, no one is going to have the time or budget to do this, let
    alone a potential market for the materials. Sad. Such a beautiful process. What is being done with the older tricolor cameras typically requires a faster film for the blue
    separation than for the red and green. Try 100TM for R&G and 400TM for the B. It is
    easier to get matched separations with these films than with the older Super XX, which
    had problems building enough contrast with the blue separation. Photoshop simplifies
    things, but I have demonstrated to myself that very precise separations can still be made the old-fashioned way vis darkroom alond, indeed, much better than in the "good old days" themselves. Time-consuming to learn, however.

  3. #33
    Drew Wiley
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
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    SF Bay area, CA
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    Re: National Fotocolor One-Shot Camera

    Sandy - by "modern" I mean something totally new. I'm aware of all that past stuff and the real limitations in both the mechanism and the "look" to each. There are whole new ways (non-dichromate) of tanning gelatin, and entire classes of pigment manufacture which get around some of the inherent problems of the past. But no one is going to drop a few million dollars into R&D developing something with no conceivable possibility of a financial return. ... On slightly different note, the first digital camera Sinar marketed was a three-shot scanning back with a revolving
    color wheel in front of the lens. I've seen a few of these come up dirt cheap now that
    they're relatively obsolete for studio use, but they'd make a great color-separation
    system for someone doing still-life.

  4. #34
    Claudio Santambrogio
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    Re: National Fotocolor One-Shot Camera

    Also, for those that read French: http://www.galerie-photo.com/test-trichromie.html

  5. #35

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    Re: National Fotocolor One-Shot Camera

    If one is only interested in the final product a good case can be made that there has been a lot of R&D in the development of color pigment inkjet printers. In most important ways pigment inkjet prints, which appear to have very good permanence, are much more like traditional color carbon transfer prints than prints made with any of the dye based systems.

    Sandy



    Quote Originally Posted by Drew Wiley View Post
    Sandy - by "modern" I mean something totally new. I'm aware of all that past stuff and the real limitations in both the mechanism and the "look" to each. There are whole new ways (non-dichromate) of tanning gelatin, and entire classes of pigment manufacture which get around some of the inherent problems of the past. But no one is going to drop a few million dollars into R&D developing something with no conceivable possibility of a financial return. ...

  6. #36
    Drew Wiley
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    Location
    SF Bay area, CA
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    Re: National Fotocolor One-Shot Camera

    Sandy - that's the problem. The financial incentive for all the new patents and R&D is
    headed toward inkjet. But that is no substitute for the real deal. If even a fraction of
    that interest went toward a redux or DT or carbon I think we'd have something visually remarkable, though not necessarily profitable. And I'm extremely skeptical that
    inkjet is a permanent as "accelerated aging" tests claim. I reviewed a number of the patents of what goes into the inks, and also have a lot of experience with pigment
    testing in other fields, as well as the kind of bull that generally accompanies marketing.
    But that's a bit off topic. I also believe inkjet R&D will plateau at "good enough" very
    soon, if it hasn't already. Basically, the process colors used for carbon haven't changed
    a whole lot in the last century - certainly in some specifics. But pigments are generally
    designed to be opaque, which is a disadvantage when it comes to suquential layers of
    color in a print. I also believe there is often an undersireable interaction with the gelatin causing premature cross-linking, either in certain pigments themselves or certain impurities. These issues can be solved using one or two wholly new classes of
    pigments; but so far, I don't think anyone on the Carbon forum is even aware of this
    possibility. It would have to be a lobor of love and $$$ to reinvent the wheel, however.

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