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Thread: RC vs. Fiber based papers

  1. #11

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    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    Anyone just tuning in, this is an "auto-thread." All you have to do is ask a particular question with two words in close proximity (like fiber and RC, for example) and a computer generates all of the above and at the very end you are just where you would have been if you'd read the old prototype threads. I'm sure it works with "Schneider vs. Rodenstock," anything having to do with "pyro" and if you've got a really fast chip try it with Xtol.

  2. #12

    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    Paul, Ilford has verified their archival process( 2 min fix in fresh film strength rapid fix, 2 mins in hypo clearing agent, 20 minute wash) sequence through exhautive testing. I have been printing for enough years to know that Ilford or Kodak wouldn't put it in writing if it wasn't a good method. I have prints in full sunlight 3 or 4 hours a day behind glass that have been hanging for years with no deterioration whatsoever. Edward Weston had a very limited supply of water in his darkroom. He didn't have an archival washer wasting water. He used trays of water which were changed after so many prints were put through them. Neither do many printers who don't have access to large amounts of water. No my system has proved out as far as I'm concerned. Your RC will last a long time givebn adequate care and adequate storage conditions. But I have RC prints that were washed for an hour or more that have silvered out sitting in a dark closet. So I say RC is no where near as good as fibre base paper. Just look at any gallery you want to pick and see how many accept RC prints. I have seen way too many "archivally" processed RC prints that last a few years and then silver out. Ctein has written about it exhaustively too. Sorry, case closed. James

  3. #13

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    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    James, Afraid the case is still slightly ajar! Washing RC prints for an hour isn't going to make them archival. With RC too much wahing is detrimental to the print. One of the advantages of RC is its short wash times, the plastic prevents fixer entering the paper support. Too long a wash and the print can suffer from cockling, where the plastic and paper starts to separate.Maybe this has been the problem you encountered? I've seen plenty of crappy RC prints (that have been processed incorrectly)that won't last and plenty of crappy fibre prints too (covered in stains and not flat)that won't last. The point I'm trying to make is that you can't simply dismiss something just because its the "in" thing to do! If RC wasn't any good then why is it still being made? Everything has its place! I use fibre paper, but still prefer using RC for lots of my work. I too have RC prints that both myself and my customers have had hanging in all sorts of locations.....TO MY KNOWLEDGE NONE OF THEM HAS LET ME DOWN. Photography is full of snobbery, dismissing RC paper is just another example of it! Whether you like it or not RC is here to stay....customer demand will ensure that. I appreciate that Ctein may have concluded that RC is crap ( haven't read any of his stuff) but I'm a great believer in trying things out for myself rather than taking one persons word as gospel. And remember, all your negatives will probably be on plastic anyhow, so you want to hope that it does last!! Regards

  4. #14

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    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    Not to pour oil on troubled waters but my understanding of Ctein's conclusions was as follows. I don't think he was saying the plastic is problematic. Resin coated paper uses titanium dioxide as part of the white paper subbing layer instead of barium oxide which is used in fiber based paper. He concluded that the titanium oxide layer was at war with the plastic base, and exposure to light hastened the battle. Keeping a print under glass seems to exacerbate the problem. As stated in a previous post, selenium toning and treatment with Sistan seems to help the problem. As for how they look, heck, whatever looks good to you is the only criterion that can be used. Was it Weston who said he didn't care if the print was made on a bathmat as long as it was a good print? Cheers, DJ.

  5. #15

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    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    FWIW, Wilhelm talks a bit about this in his book, and in talking about polyester based print materials, such as the Melinex based Cibachrome Classic paper--which is an opaque type polyester base---he says that if the manufacturers were to make a b&w RC paper on this base material (without the brighteners) that this would outlast any other type of b&w print. Apparently, polyester is incredibly stable, supposedly moreso than 100% cotton in dark storage, and it is the most resistant to atmospheric damage as well. This is why ESTAR based, or polyester based sheet films are used in institutions, or in the HABS work as well...coupled with toning the image to protect the emulsion, makes it very longlasting...and this also the reason why Mylar D enclosures are preferred as well.

    Here are some links for info about RC papers. The biggest problems I've ever encountered with RC papers have been with them being attacked by pollutants from their surroundings. In some sorta unscientifc ringarounds we've done, the toned images have lasted alright, while an untoned control print will crap out relatively fast. Different papers are affected differently as well, in fact the one paper that Wilhelm recommended in his 1993 book, has performed the worst as far as I can tell. I'm going to tack a link on to a page studying peroxide attacks on RC prints, that's exactly what I'm referring to...what we've seen--using the same materials & processor--is close to this example.

    I'm not intending for this to be a "rc v.s. fiber thread", but for some uses fiber based paper is impractical, and I don't believe that every person out there looking at this forum is interested in making "master prints" all the time... Here are the links:

    These are from the Abbey Newsletter:

    http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/abbey/an/an21/an21-4/an21-405.htm l

    http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byorg/abbey/an/an12/an12-5/an12-507.htm l

    These are from the ConsDistlist off CoOL:

    http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1997/1157.html

    http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1993/0536.html

    http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1993/0376.html

    http://palimpsest.stanford.edu/byform/mailing-lists/cdl/1997/1159.html

    This from the IAQ group dealing with indoor air pollution:

    http://hjem.get2net.dk/ryhl/rc_photos.htm

    Oh, and lastly I should add: Opinions expressed in this message may not represent the policy of my agency.

  6. #16

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    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    Here's another good one for you all...this is from the NEDCC's online tutorial "Preservation 101", and this part deals with photos. This is a good overview of the terminology, ANSI specs, and practices used in dealing with long term archiving.

    http://www.nedcc.org/p101cs/lesson7.htm

    This is a good page to keep handy if you're interested in storage materials as well.

  7. #17

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    Jan 2001
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    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    Geez, must be having a bad night down here...these links are all....well, look all this stuff came off of three major conservation sites. One is the massive, Conservation OnLine. Besides having tons of other useful info, there's a pretty longrunning listgroup off there called the ConsDistList. If you do searches on that, you'll find a variety of researchers & conservators answering questions there....The NEDCC documetns are great, and the "Preservation 101" tutorial can be accessed through the homepage easily. Lastly, Abbey Publications is another paper conservation group, and Douglas Nishimura of the Image Permanence Institute wrote an article called "How Stable Are Photos on RC Paper" for the Abbey Newsletter, Vol. 21, Number 4. Nov.1997. You can get to Abbey through CoOL. Douglas Nishimura, and others have alot of posts on the Distlist as well. These other ones that dealt with developer incorporated papers, residual thiosulfate levels, toning for protection etc. The IAQ group is another good site, but that may be too museum oriented for some. I was just trying to save you all some legwork....

  8. #18

    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    Here's another answer;

    I went through my stored prints over the weekend looking for some prints to put up at an exhibit this week. I found that a lot more of the RC prints made on Ilford RC paper in the time period 1991 to 1997 are getting brown spots. I stopped using RC paper all together in 1997.

    All of the fiber prints from 1956 to the present are doing fine!

  9. #19

    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    OK - Now were talking, WINE, RC and Fiber Paper! It is the best combination! I think the staining would be more beautiful on the fiber and of course the feel of a Great Wine on a Fine Fiber Paper is hard to beat. But the RC would wash up much better after the Party.

    All joking aside... I am new to fiber (the last few years) and there is no doubt that it is the BEST. But I just can't stand to throw out 20 hand made Fine Fiber Prints onto a Board Room Table for discussion, and have the Damn pigs dump Breakfast, Lunch, Dinner, on them and then finger them to death. I feel that because of the "Fiber Only" Mistique we have created the impression that they are difficult to print(this is NOT true) however, I think we all can agree that they do require more time. And for me time is Money! And if I only have a 2 or 3 hours to make up 20 prints for a meeting, then the choice has been made for me. But I DO like Fiber more and more each day. I just wish I knew all there is to know about all the Mystery, but then I miss the fun of learning.

    Clare, try Fiber you will like it. My Doctor says it's good for the Diet, and none of get enough fiber.... ;-)

    Mac

  10. #20

    Join Date
    Nov 1999
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    740

    RC vs. Fiber based papers

    Hey Dan, chill out!!!! Surely the whole point of a forum is to discuss and debate? I'm perfectly entitled to my opinion as you are to yours, so what's the problem? I'm just telling it as I see it, sure I don't test my materials in a scientific manner...I USE MY TIME TO TAKE PHOTOS, NOT TO TEST!! If something works for me, I'll use it. If the same doesn't suit you, then who gives a ****!! Do what suits you, I'm not that interested. As for customer demands......the customer controls demand!! If the customer don't want it then it ain't going to last that long!! We're seeing it as we speak, Kodak withdrawing black and white films, Polaroid up against the wall.WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE!!

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