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Thread: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

  1. #1

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    Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    Hi,

    I am tempting to buy an Epson 3800 and since I haven't seen a B&W print from that machine (and I don't have the opportunity in my town), especially not with my own digital files, I have a question for you.

    You see, I shoot 4x5" and print the negatives in my darkroom on mainly Kentmere VC FB 12x16".

    My main question is. If I would take a good scan (I have an Epson V700) of that negative and write it on an Epson, would I have the same tonality as my darkroom print?

    I understand that it may come to which paper I use and such, but my main conserne is if it will look like a darkroom-print with great black and wonderful tonality or will it look like a print has done it?

    / Marcus

  2. #2

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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    This is a religious issue. I use an Epson 3800 and Harmon Gloss FB paper. I scan my 4x5 black and white with a scanner about like yours, and I print in AWB mode, using Qimage for final sharpening on the image from Photoshop. (On 4x5, sharpening should be more about contrast than making the grass blades pop, and is critical to a good looking print.)

    I took a box of 17x25 prints to a serious portfolio review with some national picture editors and some gallery folks. A number of them did not recognize that these were digital prints until I told them. I got high praise for the print quality, and they were not intrinsically polite folks.

    Of course content was another issue - this was my Katrina work and to a person, they said that no one wants to hang that sort of stuff on their walls.:-)

  3. #3

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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    I understand that it may come to which paper I use and such, but my main conserne is if it will look like a darkroom-print with great black and wonderful tonality or will it look like a print has done it?
    Marcus,

    IMO, one can produce very nice B&W prints with a 3800 using a RIP, much better than with the Epson driver. However they are not the equivalent to a well made gelatin silver print as these will look different in ways that I can't describe. Prints made on Harman Fiber Gloss are very very nice but they aren't the equivalent of gelatin silver.

    Lenswork publishing is now selling 3 sample prints (2 B&W and 1 color) for $15 using HFG if you wish to get an idea about how these well made inkjet prints might look.

    My 2 cents,

    Don Bryant

  4. #4

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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Richards View Post
    This is a religious issue.
    Agreed. I've managed to spark a few holy wars myself, unintentionally, mind you.
    I am pleased to see such excellent work done with a process I sometimes use, Ed.

    Your images are impressive.

  5. #5

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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    Quote Originally Posted by D. Bryant View Post
    Marcus,

    IMO, one can produce very nice B&W prints with a 3800 using a RIP, much better than with the Epson driver. However they are not the equivalent to a well made gelatin silver print as these will look different in ways that I can't describe. Prints made on Harman Fiber Gloss are very very nice but they aren't the equivalent of gelatin silver.
    I always seem to get into trouble by noting this...

  6. #6
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    I second Ed's comments as my workflow is very similar to his. I will add that I used to have a commercial wet lab for twenty until about ten years ago where I gone to digital only printing. The papers we had thirty years ago were better than those we can get today and that's my main reason for going digital. I would say that Harmon FB Gloss looks to me very similar to a RC type paper that you can get today but saying that neither one has that great look of fiber based papers from the past IMHO. But they are close.

    I will also add that when I started in fine art B&W printing in the early 70's that using RC paper was just shy of blasphamey and variable contrast paper was a sin.
    Greg Lockrey

    Wealth is a state of mind.
    Money is just a tool.
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  7. #7

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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    Ilford glossy FB based paper was my "stock" paper for a long time. I basically haven't done too many wet prints since Harman glossy FB was released. I've done comparisons of the two papers of the same image a few times. If you want, email me an file and I'll print it for you and mail it back to you. Drop me a PM if you're interested.

  8. #8

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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Richards View Post
    to a person, they said that no one wants to hang that sort of stuff on their walls.:-)
    They're wrong about NO ONE. If I could afford one, I certainly would hang it with pride.
    Michael W. Graves
    Michael's Pub

    If it ain't broke....don't fix it!

  9. #9
    lazy retired bum
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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    Darkroom wet prints are intrinsically different than pigment prints. Having said that, I printed in the darkroom for a lot of years, originally with Dupont Varigam and Varilour, on to Seagull and Agfa graded papers, and in the end with Ilford Multigrade and Forte.

    I now scan 4x5 with a Microtek 1800f, print with an Epson 3800 and Harman Glossy paper and I am happier with my results now than I ever was with my darkroom work. That, of course, may just say something about my darkroom skills. I think my new work is better, but some of that may be the result of the incredible ability of Photoshop CS3 to adjust local contrast.

    I agree that the easiest thing in your situation is to get the Lenswork prints and compare. I do not think anything done with a pigment printer will be exactly the SAME as a darkroom print, but I also have "fooled" some renowned photographers who had seen my darkroom work and did not know I had switched to pigment printing.

    The struggle people have in describing the differences also says a lot about how good pigment prints can be when properly done.

    Ultimately, if you are an amateur, and work for your own enjoyment, you will need to decide which process you prefer. I thought I'd never give up darkroom printing...

    Good luck.

    Eric

  10. #10
    Resident Heretic Bruce Watson's Avatar
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    Re: Would Epson 3800 B&W look like darkroom-print?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Carlsson View Post
    If I would take a good scan (I have an Epson V700) of that negative and write it on an Epson, would I have the same tonality as my darkroom print?
    A difficult question to answer because the topic is so subjective.

    The bottom line: inkjet is a new and different media. It's not wanna-be silver gelatin. Both inkjet and silver gelatin have their own inherent strengths and weaknesses. With the right techniques and materials you can make outstanding prints with either one.

    I doubt seriously you'll get the exact same tonality from one as you get from the other. That doesn't make either one bad. And it doesn't make either one good. They are just different. Which one you personally like more, suits your images better, or has a workflow with which you are more comfortable, only you can decide.

    Bruce Watson

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