Best starter LF for landscape?

[nanuq]

Hi,
I'm shooting a lot of landscape and have been thinking of giving LF a try, as this seems to give the best possible quality and I'm often disappointed by the results from my DSLR. I have read quite a few resources (mainly on this website and forum) but haven't found exactly what I'm looking for, and I'm hoping you could help

Here is my situation: I want to give LF a fair try, but I don't want to blow thousands of euros to discover that I won't bother taking pictures with it, so am looking for something very cheap to start with, and will then consider upgrading if it is really what I want to do. At the moment, I am exclusively interested in landscape for LF (I'm happy to use 35mm for portrait/street and don't do so much of architecture or macro), so I'm not sure that having all the movements would be so important. Small size and weight are paramount, as I plan to hike, bike and perhaps even climb with it, as well as take it on far travels. This is perhaps not as important for a starter camera, but even though I try to be as careful as possible with all my gear, it tends to see pretty bad conditions every now and then and I wouldn't want it to fail on me at bad times.

Unfortunately, I can't take photography classes (I'm living in Denmark and don't speak the language, and besides I'm not sure there are any available) and the local photography club doesn't want to touch film with sticks anymore. The big photo store has some gear, but it's either very expensive or very bulky (full list is at http://products.photografica.com/sho...GroupGuid=5524 if you want to take a look), so at the moment, it looks like ebay.
From what I've read, it looks like a field camera is the way to go, but since they're all quite expensive (by my standards), I was thinking that a graphic view would be the best way to get started.

Your thoughts would be more than welcome!

Thanks,
/Alexandre

[Scott Knowles]

I'm in year two of my adventure in LF and don't have a problem with the equipment, see camera bag. I use a Horseman HD which, depsite its limitations - no back control and top tilt, is good for learning. I carry two of the three lenses (120mm, 150mm and 210mm) which covers almost everything I need (the 90mm, 180mm and 300mm lenses waiting on new camera).

I think the question is if you're serious you'll spend the money for good equipment. The last thing any beginner needs is to buy equipment they shortly regret and don't like LF photography when they didn't give a good shot (sorta' speaking). The problem is once in, it's hard to get out unless you're lucky to find a buyer for the equipment, so it's best going in to say you're committed to learning and doing LF photography.

And if the money is not extra to everything else you do, including you're other photography, you're fine, but if not, then rethink and wait until you can have the money to spend without regret. After all, LF photography is a lifetime interest, so it's not like it's obsolete in a year or two. Only the photographer may become by not working at it.

Just my thoughts. Good luck.

[CG]

On the other hand ...

I don't think it is accurate to say that if he's "serious" Alexandre will jump through a big financial hoop just because we believe in LF. He needs a chance to try out LF to determine whether he wishes to approach LF seriously. And, for that matter, he needs to discover what "seriously" means to him. It may be utterly different from how I or you see it.

The jump from 35 or digital to LF is huge and I support Alexandre's thought about getting a starter camera cheaply. His concern that a LF camera might go largely unused is reasonable. They are big and clunky and are a totally new experience, and they're not for everyone. Alexandre may discover that, for him, LF is a boon, or a bummer. It may or may not suit his way of working and seeing, and I think he needs to try cheaply before becoming fully invested in the best of the best.

The first thing I'd recommend would be trying to rent or borrow LF equipment of any kind, just to get one's toes "wet". Some pro photographer in Copenhagen must still have his/her LF equipment sitting unused in a corner. Make some calls. Leave some placards on the walls of camera stores and schools. Maybe the folks at the camera club have an unused LF to try.

I think that scouring the used markets for a workable but cheap "user" camera would be great. Keep your eye on Craigslist: http://copenhagen.craigslist.org/pho and on the classifieds here and on www.apug.org Given the evidently lower prices on used starter cameras over here in the US, it might even be possible to economically ship one over. There are deals around, but you have to keep your eye out and patient. Maybe you could put a wanted ad in Craigslist. Scrounge for a camera.

I'd urge him to find a starter camera based on price and condition and availability, and not try to get the perfect camera. He'll learn more through shooting and working through the issues that come up, than anything I could impart to him.

One question that he needs to answer before he can really move forward is what format 4x5, 5x7, 8x10... Reading up on the whole process - from shooting to darkroom - will help him see the import of many of the choices.

Presuming we are talking about the BW darkroom, 4x5 means probably enlarging. 8x10 brings the possibility of contact printing. If he shoots color, then he could possible hand the issue of processing off to someone else. BW maybe too, but...

This is a great place to ask the questions that come up as one tries out LF.

Welcome aboard, Alexandre!

[John Kasaian]

Close to the car---monorail.
Far from the car---field camera.
Handheld (and all the above)---press camera.
Get something used and in good condition to play with, or better yet take a class or pal around with an LF'er in the field for a day or two. That will give you a taste for what's in store.
My 2-cents
Good luck!

[Nick_3536]

One of the advantages of LF is you can do it on the cheap. There isn't much/any equipment aimed at the amatuer market.

Plus if the camera works and holds the lens and film in the right spots then the camera isn't that big of an issue. The lenses that you'll be able to reuse later with a better camera matter more.

I'd agree with getting something in good condition but not expensive. If you can live without rear movements get a B&J press camera. You won't be paying anything for the name -) You won't be able to hurt it. Not heavy or bulky.

[nanuq]

Thanks all. Just to add a few things, I've already pretty much decided I would go for 4x5 and colour slides. I don't think I'll print wide enough to justify the extra weight and bulk of 8x10, and seeing how I'm struggling in the darkroom to get good BW prints from 35mm (I've started photography with digital, so all this is new to me), I figured I could as well go to colour directly.
And it will definitely be far from the car: I don't have one, I just bike, walk or take the train

As for lenses, my tastes with 35mm definitely go towards pretty wide for landscapes, so I was thinking of starting with just a 90mm lens, over longer 150 or 210 that seem to be pretty standard.

My main worry, and I guess my main question, is whether by going with a press camera (either a graphics or a B&J as Nick suggests), I will be giving LF a "fair try", or whether you think I should spend the extra buck for a field camera, and take the risk to find out that it's not for me after all.

[Struan Gray]

I recommend joining APUG and signing up for their Scandinavian focus group. There are several LF-ers from the Copenhagen region there who can give you help with both hands-on experience with LF cameras and tipoffs to good local deals:

http://www.apug.org/forums/forum189/

My experience is that there are no LF equipment bargains in Scandinavia except for occasional private sales. These sometimes show up on local small-ads sites, but it's more often by word of mouth. The Danes on APUG have an impressive record of finding good LF deals and passing them on to others.

For good basic gear, MXV in the UK have some great deals (www.mxv.co.uk). The best deals are in monorails, but some of the less popular field cameras can also be found cheaply. eBay.uk and eBay.de (if you can muddle through some German) are also good sources of kit at sane prices, but there are very few bargains in field cameras there.


PS: I have a packable monorail, an older Sinar Norma. It's fine for hiking, even quite wild hiking, but hard to take along if photography is not the main purpose of the trip. You're welcome to come and see it in Lund if you feel like a trip across the Öresund. I got is because as a beginner I didn't want to be limited in movements or extension: I found I wanted both more than conventional wisdom suggests, so I've kept it.

[nanuq]

That's great Struan, thanks very much!

[Sheldon N]

Welcome Alexandre -

I say that a field camera is an easy way to test the waters in LF before going into a more expensive camera. Your idea to go with a 90mm and a 150mm lens is also a good option. I found that a 90/150/240 kit was nice, but could easily have done with just the 90 and 150.

If you do decide to go with a field camera, I have a 4x5 Tachihara (Calumet Wood Field XM) in nice condition that I'm going to be selling shortly. Drop me a PM if you have any interest.

Thanks!

[Bruce Watson]

As for lenses, my tastes with 35mm definitely go towards pretty wide for landscapes, so I was thinking of starting with just a 90mm lens, over longer 150 or 210 that seem to be pretty standard.

I can see why you would think this. However, it won't work the way you think. The problem with starting with a 90mm lens on a 5x4 camera is that it makes it difficult to learn movements. In order to climb the learning curve you have to be able to see what you are doing. And the image from a 90mm lens on the ground glass can be small indeed.

I say this from experience: I did more or less what you propose; my first lens was a 110mm. Don't repeat my mistake; you really would be better served getting a 150mm lens first. It will make climbing the learning curves both easier and faster.

My main worry, and I guess my main question, is whether by going with a press camera (either a graphics or a B&J as Nick suggests), I will be giving LF a "fair try", or whether you think I should spend the extra buck for a field camera, and take the risk to find out that it's not for me after all.

I'd avoid a press camera. The reason being that they are designed for quick action (they were designed for the working press after all) and hand holding. They were usually setup as rangefinders -- and they work great that way.

But to learn to use movements, you have to compose on the ground glass and view the effects of movements on the ground glass. You wont be hand holding -- you'll be using a tripod. You'll be using it as a view camera and not as a press camera.

Learning how to use movements should be your goal if you want to make landscape photographs. And if that's your goal, I think you'd be better off with a field camera. That is, use the tool designed for the task.

Of course there are always many paths to the waterfall. Your path may well be different than mine. I'm just saying that you might want to consider these things as you make your choice.

All that said, learning to use a view camera isn't very hard. It takes some practice, patience, and a little thought. That's all. And the rewards of being able to make the photograph that you really want to make are just huge. I'll never go back to smaller formats again if I can help it!