I have seen the 6x17 Shen Hao at the Photokina show in September. A really nice and very versatile camera. Although I was very satisfied with the Gaoersi 617 I used to own, it lacked the ability of using tilt and a variety of LF lenses. So, if I were in the market for a 6x17 camera, I sure would pick the Shen Hao.Originally Posted by jesskramer
I use a Shen Hao 617 back on an Ebony 45S which allows me to shoot in panoramic aspect or portrait, it's a great setup. I also have a Fotoman 612 and it is extremely well made...Evan Clarke
I still think Panoraflex would be faster to operate. Check the composition on the groundglass, put already loaded film back on, check the focus / f -stop scale on the focusing hood, expose.
I can understand, you marked infinity, but how do you get hyperfocal distances? How does it lok like? And why at f16? Why not set the aperture to f22, f32? Are the lenses diffraction limited?
Sorry for many questions, but I'm new in large format.
Van Camper,
You do make some valid points. I wouldn't use the Shen Hao from a plane. You could wear Fotoman/Gaesori/DaYi/Linhof around your neck.
However, having used both cameras, several 6x12 cameras and medium formats such as Fuji 6x9, Pentax 67 and Mamiya 6 and 7s, I have to strenuously disagree on several points you contest.
First, none of these camera (sans, at a stretch, a 6x12) handle like a medium format. They are simply too big. Also, the panoramic nature of these magnifies out of vertical/horizontal errors significantly more than the 6x9 ratio that you likened the format to.
Second, a 90mm lens is a very, very wide lens at 6x17 format. It is far from being a "standard" focal length (assuming 50-55mm in 135 format). It is actually around 22mm in 135 format equivalent. A "Standard" focal length would be somewhere over 150mm. There is a good explanation of this made by Paul Droluk and Michael Briggs at photo.net under the topic of "Advice on lens selection for 617 Panoramic camera". 22mm is a very wide angled lens on 135 format.
Third, I agree that this is "...not the same as cropping a piece of 4x5 film to get the same ratio". But it is NOTHING like a 6x9cm perspective. In fact, it is more like cropping a piece of 5x7 film to get the same ratio. You are capturing the same 6x17cm "block" of the image circle that you would with the centre of the 5x7 sheet of film. The perspective of this crop is simply no different, which makes me wonder what you meant when you say that "This is true panoramic"...
Forth, I am also not sure why a range finder is better for closer work. As you will be aware, the closer the focal point, the shallower the DOF. Thus, if correct focus is critical, wouldn't a ground glass be a safer bet? And I would be preying to a higher power that the parallax error of the 'finder is not too great.
Fifth, a GG with a Fresnel, in my experience, is as useful as a range finder in low light.
Sixth, the Shen Hao can take any lens, up to a 350mm (with Top Hat lens board), from any brand (as long as it covers approx 5x7 format; the same caveat as for ALL 6x17 cameras). Forget your 3 brands to choose from. Got a board mounted 1904 Bausch and Lomb lens? Chuck it on!! A Thornton Pickard? Get out the black hat and expose away. Your grandfather's Ilex-Calumet Caltal in an Acme #4 shutter? Just say cheese.
Seventh, I think that your comment "...but then again many people buy several of these bodies for the convenience of not needing to switch lenses" is somewhat oxymoronic. I don't think that carrying several 4 pound cameras (EXCLUDING lens weight) is very convenient!! I especially don't think that it is any quicker/more convenient than using a dark cloth or focusing every shot on the ground glass on a single camera body in a mid sized backpack with 5 lenses.
Finally, whilst not a disagreement, I must add to your comment about the Shen Hao offering Tilts. It also offers front and rear swings and 2-way front shifts. But I guess if you're using a 6x17 camera as a point and shoot, these will not really be of much interest.
Bjorn
After using a Gaoersi 6x17 for over 18 months in three continents all I can say is the build quality is excellent, support for spare parts is fast. The foot of my Viewfinder was accidently broken, and the spare part arrived in 5 days from China.
Film flatness is fine, and I've not felt a need for any movements, so far. Lenses are interchangeable and I have two focus cones for 75mm & 90mm lenses, but in practice I found I only ever use the 75mm.
Mainly I use the 6x17 hand-held often in locations where using a tripod is not permitted, or needs a special permit etc, and the Gaoersi is ideal. Having seen various Fotoman cameras I really can't see a difference in build quality between the two.
Ian
I second Van Camper. A 6x17 back on a field camera is a completely different think. I use field cameras enough to be aware of their constraints : tripod, time to be operated, wind, ...A Fotoman/Gaoersi/Linhof 6x17 camera can be used on a monopod up to 120 mm, with non objectionable results. A shifted ptotograph may be taken in 3 or 4 minutes, more depending on the convenience of the backpacking method. How much time to operate a field camera ? How much shots lost because you can't unfold your equipment ?
I own a Fotoman 6x17 for some years, and for 6 months the shifting plate, that I stongly recommend. Panoramic is first to view wide; until I have had shifting capability, my basic lens was a 72 XL. Now I prefer to narrow to 90 mm, as the vertical range is enough when the lens is shifted. Not to say that longer lenses are not usefull, they are, but for a minor part of the work.
I can't comment on Gaoersi, Fotoman are rugged, support is friendly and effective. The ability to change the lens during a roll would be the only improvement that I could wish, but the design doesn't allow it. Obviously, the lens(es) that you dedicate to these cameras are sterilized for simultaneaous use on another large format system, but this is the price to pay for a true on-the-go panoramic camera.
As much as I see, there are three types of 617 panoramic cameras.
(from a landscape photographer point of view)
1. group: Linhof, Fuji, Fotoman, Gaoersi, ...
Plus:
- fast focusing
- depth of field scale on focusing hood
- more prone to the wind shaking
- lens range 72-400 mm (depending on camera brand)
- some have shift ability
Minus:
- heavy bag, when using more lenses with lens cones
- paralax when using optical viewfinder
- groundglass can not be used mid roll
- lens can not be replaced mid roll
- loading the film after groundglass composing takes time
2. group: Da Yi, Panoraflex, Gaoersi
Here we have interchangeable film back, otherwise similar to 1. group
Plus:
- fast focusing
- depth of field scale on focusing hood
- prone to wind
- shift ability
- GG can be used mid roll
- lens can be replaced mid roll
- film back enables immediate exposure after GG composition
Minus:
- lens range 'only' 75 - 250 mm
- paralax when using optical viewfinder
- heavier because of the film back
- heavy bag, when using more lenses with lens cones
3. group: Ebony 617S, Shen Hao TFC 617
This is a field camera with 617 film back.
Plus:
- light weight, especially when using more lenses (compared to group 1. or 2.)
- lenses can be used on another format camera (6x9 cm, 4x5'', ...)
- allows tilt and shift
- lens range 72 - 305 mm
- GG can be used mid roll
- lens can be replaced mid roll
- film back enables immediate exposure after GG composition
Minus:
- wind can be hooked into the bellows
- slow focusing
- no DOF scale
- no optical viewfinder; forced into GG composing under dark cloth
Each group has it's strenghts and weaknesses.
Shen Hao 617 field camera seems to me to be a good decision.
Allows tilt (OTOH masters of panoramic photography like Ken Duncan or Colin Prior can live without it).
Sometimes there's really no time to set everything. Focusing time could be shortened (like Lachlan suggested) by marking infinity and hyperfocal distances on the flatbed rails for all used lenses. And if I add a Fotoman viewfinder on top of the camera, then this is a camera for fast work too.
Ambroz
Actually, I think that the Gaoersi/DaYi used to take well over 300mm. From memory, you could get a "stacked" focus mount to extend the 300mm cone to about 350mm. Given they don't seem to sell any cones over 210mm now, I guess that there was little demand for these 300mm cones. Maybe there's something in that for all of us?
Also, check that you can use a Copal 3 shutter with these long cones. Many (although not all) 300mm+ lenses come with this shutter.
-
You can buy the rangefinders (75-150mm zoom is useful) on eBay. Mark your lenses on this (found via trial and error to get the equiv rather than trusting the markings) and carry it in your pocket. Helps you to "see" the image before setting up the actual shot.3. group: Ebony 617S, Shen Hao TFC 617
This is a field camera with 617 film back.
Minus:
- no optical viewfinder; forced into GG composing under dark cloth.
Give them time; I think they'll have a good look at the Ebony and/or the Shen Hao!!!Shen Hao 617 field camera seems to me to be a good decision.
Allows tilt (OTOH masters of panoramic photography like Ken Duncan or Colin Prior can live without it).
Lachlan.
Mr. Colin Prior wrote once in his blog, that now he uses Canon DSRL for all of his work, except for panoramic, where he still uses his Fuji 617. He is waiting for digital panoramic camera to unify the workflow.
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I also read somewhere, that Mr. Ken Duncan now uses Canon DSRL.
Many other famous panoramic photographers switch to digital (Nick Rains, Peter Lik).
It seems to me, there is not much interest on old fashioned 617 field cameras among them.
Ambroz
http://www.roundshot.ch/xml_1/intern.../d925/f934.cfm
There you go . . . digital 6x17.
Ciao!
Gordon Moat Photography
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