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Thread: Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

  1. #31

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    A note for those who protest about buying expensive computers and software, only to have them become obsolete immediately:

    Your computer and software are not obsolete as long as they perform the task you require of them. If a faster CPU comes out, yours does not cease to function. If a new version of Photoshop is released, your version does not refuse to launch.

    I've seen small companies that run payrolls on an old 80286 computer running DOS. It does the job that is asked of it. No need to mess with it. If the computer dies, you can replace it for less than $10!

    If you have a requirement that current hardware/software cannot meet (not enough memory, too slow, printer or scanner resolution too low, etc.), then you should wait. If a current system meets all of your requirements, then why wait?

    If your system is sufficient, the only reasons to upgrade are: you are willing to pay the price for that little extra speed; some component has failed; you are doing something new, which requires a more capable machine; some new "feature" will make your life so much more pleasant that you just can't refuse.

    The people who constantly upgrade are doing it because they have some fetish about owning the latest and fastest. You do not have to join in this dick-measuring contest.

    Finally, if there is one weak link in your process, ie. you want high-quality scans but can't afford a scanner that meets your needs, that's when you look to the service bureaux. They regularly buy the best equipment, and amortize the cost across their customers.

    For example, you could set up a digital workflow as follows: a computer with enough RAM, CPU speed, disk space to make you happy (if you can settle for one or two notches below the state-of-the-art, you can save a lot of money); a flatbed scanner; an Epson inkjet; maybe a piezography printer; photoshop. When you have that exceptional image, pay for a drum scan. When you want to print to a wide-format printer (or get a lightjet print, ...) send it to a service bureau.

  2. #32

    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    Michael, don't you think your response is a bit ironic seeing how people are jumping to this new and expensive technology (considering most of them probably have traditional printing equipment already or access to it) only because it is "new" and "digital". Don't get me wrong, this technology is great and I use it extensively for advertising work, but I don't really see any advantages to it for fine art work. To spend all this time and money (if you are not already digitally equipped) just to achieve "almost" or "at least as good"(time will tell), just seems a bit silly to me.

  3. #33

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    Well...there's two sides to the coin, as usual...I really despise consumerism ( getting the latest thing just because you want it...) but, alot of people who upgrade are worried about being left behind. Running payroll, or basic word processing functions is different than imaging, and especially "archiving"...you can sit on outdated equipment as long as you want if it works for you, but you better have backups if there isn't a clear path to the new technology....

    The other side is that, yeah, if it lives up to what you bought it for, why run out to get the new thing, or the next new thing, or the next next...

    Which reminds me of the digital slr we have that cost twice as much as the D1, but has half the resolution....it still does a great job. Are we going to get another, no...because this does what we need...only it's not supported anymore and the way it's running now, we have to import files through photoshop 4, save them, and then on to 5.5...and I have yet to meet or make contact with another pro/studio using one of them....all in about 5 years time.

    But, that's the price of progress...end of philosophical look...my real problem is that there is no defined standard to ink jet lifespan, whether it is a dye based or pigment based ink. People will fuss over the pros & cons of fiber based v.s. RC prints forever, and then jump on the bandwagon fullforce for inkjets believing manufacturers claims (which, hey, may pan out alright in the end...) I'm open minded about usage, but there is an irony to it in a way....it may be my cynicism, but I like to see all the test methods spelled out...not some final figure. I have used materials that were recommended as good in acclerated tests, only to discover over the course of a few years, that this isn't really so....things change outside of a lab alot....and when it comes down to pollutants in the typical office/ home air...good luck...there's everything from the ozone produced by copier machines, and inkjet printers, to foramldehyde in carpets & furniture, and peroxide from oil based paints and car exhaust, and household cleaners and everything else under the sun...not to mention the stuff that comes of us by just handling prints....

  4. #34

    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    I guess the best way to go is to look at it is on a case by case basis and weigh all the positives and negatives---then make the best choice that you can.

    I remember in school being pressured by some dealer reps to purchase a digital large format back---"you have to make a seperate exposure for each color (rgb) and its about $30,000, but you have to have it to compete in today's market!!", yeah right, I really needed that.

    good talking to you...

  5. #35

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    This is epecially for Chris and for the comments of Micheal. Getting a System, a scanner, computer, printer, and software, and getting it all to work together While you learn to operate it and at the same time learn Photoshop and all your other software to where you have an ability to manipulate your images in any way you can imagine is an ordeal.

    From day one when you plunk down your cash for your system and software to when you become master of your equipment and images, it will not only be an arduous learning curve in digital manipulation but for many days and sometime weeks on end, outright torture.

    When I first purchased my system, the OS didn't really work, or rather it worked half the time, and crashed the other half. My scanner wouldn't talk to my computer, my computer wouldn't talk to my printer, and when I could get them to talk, they would talk for awhile and then crash. I changed the OS along with countless visits on site for all the problems and glitches by the manufacturers techs(get 3 yrs onsite no matter what!!!), and slowly but surely after a year or so, I could turn on my computer do something and turn it off. My software which was all name stuff, would cause crashes, and of course when I would call the software outfits to problem solve the crashes caused by their bugs that they neglected to tell me about when I bought their stuff, they of course told me it was not their fault but the fault of the hardware I was 'usin, and hang up.

    I paid everybody good money my system and software and nobody would own up to anything. Their were countless days when I had to get nasty, yell, act ugly, to get results. The all time low for me was when the manufacturer of my system starting sending out techs on 'on site' calls who had to be walked through a problem on the telephone by another more experience tech at headquarters. I had such an individual show up and mess up my system worse than when she started working on it.

    Speaking of learning curves, after all the weeks or months of reading the one or two inch thick manuals of some of these 'top notch' programs, they would come out the next improved version with just enough to put you behind with what everybody else is capable of doing or improved color profiles and such. All this stuff had bugs in them, and some of the good stuff from previous versions would be missing from the upgrades! Micheal, you know as well as I do that you upgrade for flexibility, capability, and also because the upgrades have the bugs elinated. I don't buy upgrades just to spend money although many people probably do.

    Chris, every time you get new software and/or upgrades, be prepared for system crashes, losing your sound, a problem with you printer, and on and on. You'll eventually find your way through this maze of bugs, crashes, arrogant and/or obnoxious customer support, 2hr phone calls for help, and everything else you have to go through. You'll get good at using your system, you'll become a master of photoshop, you'll get all your stuff working just right and if you're smart, you'll just freeze you system at that point and refuse to make another change.

    I haven't added any hardware or software to my system for quite some time, and it's because everytime you do you will encounter some of the above mentioned headaches. The trouble with digital is that everybody hypes what the hardware and software can do, but you don't find out about the bugs and incompatabilities until you buy the stuff. Yes I will call to check out something and I have several times been mislead and lied to about whether or not something I was considering buying would get along with my system.

    The above stuff that I've mentioned has not really been discussed in detail here and I think it should be addressed. This is what separates digital from traditional Photography, the bugs, the quirks, the difficulty in getting tech support, the hype and sometimes outright con games and many of things we simply wouldn't tolerate from a regular photo dealer.

    Finally, a good portion of Photoshop is straight out of traditional photography, paiting, and many other traditional art forms. A lot of what is digital, CAME OUT OF THE ART OF PHOTOGRAPHY and as such, digital is an outgrowth of photograhy so it would be crazy to talk of how digital is going to replace traditional photograhy. When are folks going to start letting digital stand or fall on its own terms instead of claiming that some advance in digital is going to wipe out or replace something else? I did digital for years and still pland to do so, but I've just moved up to 8x10. Why? Becasue of the alternative processes and a wish to indulge myself in the rich experience of contact printing.

    Sometimes I think some folks yodel some digital advance and then yodel how it's going to kill off the photographic this or that as some kind of roundabout way to gain credability.

    Jonathan Brewer

    www.imageandartifact.bz

  6. #36

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    Some of the most beautiful photographic reproductions I have ever seen were conventional quadtone lithographs produced by a master printer. Gorgeous tonality and hair-sharp. The inkjets I've seen haven't got there yet, but if that's what they're aiming for, I have no complaints.

    Mind you, although the lithographs were beautiful pictures, they were recognisably different from conventional photographic prints when it came to surface texture and 'look'. I don't see why both can't co-exist, just as the art print world has a huge spectrum of different printing methods.

    DK: pictrography prints are a dye-transfer technology. I would be surprised if the dyes were as long-lasting as the pigments used in the various archival inkjet inks, but I don't know. I've had quite a few pictrography prints made recently, and they are excellent. About the only downside is the limited maximum size (30x40 cm round here) and my local lab's slightly bizarre pricing structure.

  7. #37

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    Struan, you're right about the Pictro prints, we've been looking at the smaller machine for a few years, and were actually pretty close to getting one a year or so ago...that's another story though.

    Don't get me wrong here, I'm not saying they have the lifespan of cibachrome or anything, but I would feel more comfortable selling prints to patrons off of one one of those, than say an inkjet printer. We also looked into dye sub printers about the same time, including a few Kodak models, this would have been around 1996-2000 or so. At this time, inkjets were a different beast really. The dye sub printers realistically had a lifespan in line with the average c-print, about a 6-10 yr. range. That would be under heavy, bad use...

    My thinking is based under not assuming anything will last forever, and assigning a "lifespan" to a material. If it's going to be used in an exhibit for a couple of years, and then tossed...so be it. I just become suspicious of the use of the word "archival"...because it's more of a marketing word than anything. There are standards in photography for certain materials and institutional uses...residual fixer, paper quality etc. But, even here they do not use the word "archival"....I could sell a Kraft envelope as an archival film folder, even though it wouldn't pass any of these standards....this kind of marketing goes on all the time...

    But like I said, I'm not talking about fine art printmaking here...to me, I go for the negs/ct's first...use prints for access....and now use digital in the same way. I would rather stick with the tried & true, but in a way I feel like we're being railroaded into digital, like it or not. We'd be stupid to sit and wait for things to settle out....as a final note, we do use inkjet printers (wide format HPs, Epson 3000 etc.) for most of our signage & exhibit graphics nowadays. We have a silkscreen operation as well, and used to screen print everything and use cibachromes & b/w rc prints for all our images...there is a loss of detail with the inkjets, but at the same time they're a little more versatile and definitely more friendly to work with. But when I make an inkjet for an exhibit...and we're really just starting out here, I'm hoping that it will survive the year or so it will be on display...if it craps out, we'll just print another & replace it...this is all in-house though...not selling to some patron, or using for a long term use...I wouldn't feel comfortable with that yet.

  8. #38

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    We have one of the Kodak dye-subs which we bought about seven years ago to produce non-dithered output for scientific journals who like to scan originals. It's softer than the pictrography output and the colour gamut is quite a bit smaller - greens in particular block up rather easily. It does the niche job we bought it for very well, but there are better options these days. With the ultra-life coating the prints have lasted very well, but one set hanging in a corridor went red overnight when a new linoleum floor was laid :-(

    I think the key with conventional photographic materials is that - RC bronzing aside - it is fairly well known what sort of problems are likely to crop up and what is likely to cause them. That makes it relatively easy to design an accellerated ageing test. As the Epson orange-shift fiasco showed, with new media there are new rules, and with a couple of hundred years to play with very subtle interactions can become significant.

    That said, for years people have talked in awed tones about how wonderfully stable carbon and other pigment prints are. It seems slightly bizarre now to see many of the same people finding reasons why laying pigments onto paper with an inkjet nozzle is somehow inferior to transferring them from a textured gelatin layer.

    I'm waiting for the "Sultan of Brunei" special edition from Epson, which sprays crushed rubies, emeralds and lapis lazuli onto slabs of polished Carrara marble. If nothing else, the print buyer will have good reason to keep it safe.

  9. #39

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    That's so true about some of those early processes...but I think the problem is in knowing exactly what is in the inks...understandably there are alot of propietary ink formulas out there....like this one link above, the tech sheet said it was a "hybrid dye-based pigmented ink". Your story about linoleum sounds familiar...I've seen properly processed RC prints turn orange practically overnight in a similar situation...the problem is in the emulsion laying on the surface exposed....at least you can tone a print with sulfide or selenium toner to combat this...an inkjet you're sort of at the mercy of the air quality...if you read the fine print of some of these tests, like the current one in PC world, you see the stringent conditions that the projected lifespan entails. Sometimes I wonder if the average consumer realizes that the supposed "200 year" LE means that it will be stored & displayed within a specific temp/humidity range, sealed in an aluminum frame with a UV protected glass, and displayed under certain lux levels of light...

    I've always liked the pictro prints because they've been around for a while now...the machines & materials have been in production for close to 10 years now, which makes them sort of old fashioned almost. The basic machine (8x10) starts at around $10k, so it's not like the average consumer is going to buy one...but I have seen them in studios in our area, as well as in other agencies. Our color lab has stopped making cibachromes, and for the past year every print we've gotten has been on this material...and they look great. I've seen b&w's that were profiled well, and look just like b&w's...but speaking of dye subs, I saw a promo shot the other day of an old Lewis Hine image from another insitution and it was a dye sub...the print took me back for a minute, because it had a tonality very close to the old Portriga Speed, and I thought what rc paper is this?? I turned it over and saw it was a dye sub print...this same institution offers a series of inkjet prints for sale on their website, with a disclaimer that essentially says they won't last, but they are a cheap alternative to a traditional print. Which I think is a very reasonable offer to make to patrons without telling them that it is an archival substitute.

  10. #40

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    Piezography: Ansel Adams and the inkjet print

    To extend my comments regarding "if your computer suits your needs, it is not obsolete", I think the same philosophy applies this way: If you use a traditional printing process and it suits your needs, why change to digital? If digital provides no advantage over your wet darkroom/platinum/etc. printing, it is probably not worth the expense and bother.

    Commercial photographers are always looking for ways to improve their efficiency. The lure of digital is that it can be cheaper and faster to deliver a quality product to the client. (From some of the stories above, maybe not.)

    Among fine art photogs, there is wide range of philosophies. Some specifically want to use a traditional process (for various reasons: a sense of craftsmanship, or tradition, or they know exactly what kind of result they will achieve); others are interested in exploring new techniques, "pushing the boundaries", etc. (again for various reasons: a sense of adventure, or trying to improve quality, or lowering costs, or getting better control over the image, etc).

    Neither approach is right or wrong. However, you can debate endlessly about them.

    I am pursuing the digital route, for my own reasons. I am not going to claim that it is superior to traditional techniques. I can't make any resounding claims that digital is "nearly as good"/"as good as"/"better than" traditional, but this doesn't stop me from going out and making photos and enjoying the process of making prints. I am taking Charles Cramer and Bill Atkinsons' Digital Printing Class (using LightJet) this very weekend, and I'm going to have fun at it, dammit!

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