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Thread: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

  1. #11

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Petronio View Post
    Buy a camera outfit from someone on the Forum here or at APUG and you'll have a 98% chance of getting a good deal and an honest, descriptive seller. Look for someone with alot of prior posts and who participates, and they will be honor bound to be straight with you. Beats eBay, although there are some good reliable sellers there too.

    You can also ask questions here, like, "is this a good deal?"

    Personally, YMMV, I'd get an inexpensive but fully featured monorail with a late 1980s-1990s era 210/5.6 lens from any of the major manufacturers. Some will question getting a monorail, but until you are able to use movements, you won't learn or know what movements you want to use. If you do mostly portraits, you may find that you use minimal movements, so a folding camera like a Crown Graphic (very inexpensive) or a Graflex SLR (great for portraits but not much else) may suffice. If on the other hand you gravitate towards using extreme movements -- studio work, architecture -- then no folding camera (Linhof Technika, Wista wood or metal, Toyo Field are the come ones) will be as flexible as a good monorail.

    Monorails are also cheap these days since many of the older hobby photographers aren't strong enough to lift them ;-0

    Something like a Sinar F2, Linhof Karden S, Toyo G, Arca Swiss Discovery -- those would be great to start with and they sell for about $5-700. A nice 210 would be $300 and you can get a loupe (get a cheap one -- >$20), ten holders ($100), and a changing tent ($175 for a nice Harrison Pup Tent). A Rubbermaid ice chest makes a great monorail storage case. Look for a complete outfit from someone.

    Your main concern with any used camera is the bellows, ask to see some close up photos or buy from someone trusted. Search here for how to tell if your bellows has pinholes. They can be replaced but you don't need that hassle early on.

    Use the leftover $ for film and shoot a lot of it.

    You can always sell this stuff for about what you paid for it, so later on you can decide whether you want a light, quaint little wooden camera or a heavy duty beast... but it is pretty easy to swap gear around thanks to the internet.
    Thank you. I haven't been around here long enough to stalk the For Sale section, but I don't plan on leaving anytime soon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Ellis View Post
    There are several cameras that will suit your needs I think. The Zone VI actually would do fine though I've never used one so I can't speak to how easy it is to set up and take down. "Unprotected ground glass" is no big deal, few LF cameras come with a ground glass protector but you can buy a generic one for about $15 from Calumet or several other sources (I like the Canham plexiglass protector that Badger and other places sell for about $30).

    But if you want light weight (to me, that's 6 lbs and under), movements adequate to do the things you want to do though not necessarily every possible movement, reasonably long bellows (to me, that's 15" or thereabouts), and easy to set up and take down, you have Linhof Technikas (the IVs and Vs are within your budget, weigh about 6 lbs, 15" bellows, the easiest to set up and take down of any LF camera I've owned), Chamonix ($800 MOL, full movements, 15" bellows, weigh about 4 lbs), Tachihara ($600 MOL, you'd need a "top hat" extender to get the bellows past 13"), and Shen Hao ($600 MOL, probably would also need a "top hat" to get the elllows past 12 " though Shen Haos can go to 14" if you're willing to fiddle a little with the front tilts). There are others such as Ebony and Canham that would fill the bill but they're out of your budget, there are probably others I'm not thinking of offhand.

    Tachiharas don't have front or rear shift or rear rise and fall so they probably don't have what you may be thinking of as "full" movements but the movements they have - front tilt, swing, rise, and fall and rear tilt and swing are more than adequate for most subjects. And it's very unlikely that any camera you buy today no matter what the price is going to be one you'll keep for a lifetime unless you're 80 or so.
    Maybe not a lifetime, but I certainly want something well made and durable. Thank you for the additional suggestions. I guess a century of development leaves me a lot of options.

    Quote Originally Posted by jnanian View Post
    hmmm

    i didn't really say "beater camera", i said "starter camera". ...
    getting "the best", to me at least, is a total waste of time and energy.
    you will be more timid to use it, because if it breaks, or gets damaged or whatever
    ( you are not used to using a 4x5 camera so you will probably make mistakes )
    you will then have to spend a small fortune getting it repaired and finding somene to repair it &C.
    landscapes, portraits and macro work do not require a lot of movements
    ( or any at all ) maybe something like a toyo technical view camera might be worth looking into.
    it has long bellows, the back pops out and offers some movements for
    architectural photography, and it is built rugged.

    have fun!
    john
    Beater was bad word choice on my part. I know that there is no true best camera, and to quibble about quality and things that will never impact me is time wasted. I just want a good camera that I will be able to use to take pictures with for a long time.

  2. #12

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by AutumnJazz View Post






    I might get a cheap beater camera just to practice with, but I doubt it. I have that American consumer mentality where I have to have to best of everything, but instead of relying on advertisements to tell me what the best is, I try to find it for myself. I am also somewhat of an obsessive-compulsive self-doubting perfectionist, which means it is hard for me to do something if I don't feel I can do it right, or rather, perfectly. I know how irrational that is, and I'm trying to get past it, but human minds are stubborn and complicated. :\



    There are no classes at my high school that offers view camera usage, the only thing that comes close is a class that teaches the basics of 35mm with some strange K-mount cameras. Ie. it teaches the basics of photography that I already know. And, I do try to photograph as much as I can...I will always have my Nikon F100 with me unless I am very tired or I'm afraid it will get damaged or stolen.
    First: Loose that American consumer mentality. You're in uncharted waters here. When in Turkey, do as the Turkeys Besides, the stereotypical american consumer mentality eventually leads to a bad end (as we are all learning.) Fancy de luxe gear is all well and good, but you're the one making the photograph and all the teutonic uber-engineering in the world isn't going to help you see with your heart and soul and put what you see on a sheet of film.

    Second: A 35mm is not a view camera with a glandular disorder! While film behaves the same, the camera and the photographer cannot. I'm not trying to mystify view cameras-- (I'm not, honest) but the whole experience is very different. Have you read Steve Simmons Using The View Camera?

    If there is a local camera club pay them a visit (or if there is a well stocked pro level photography store around) and tell 'em you want to see a view camera up close. Someone is bound to have one, A call to a local newpaper or police forensic photographer will likely lead to somebody who knows someone who still has a Speed Graphic or Linhof in the closet.

    Don't be surprised if you learn more about cameras in one afternoon with one of these old time photographers than you've been able to pick up over the course of your lifetime with a 35mm

    You'll figure it out. No rocket science here. As john nanian suggests, a starter camera is way to go (unless of course you are extremely wealthy and bent on creating a small fortune out of a larger one!)

    As John Sexton said the other evening: "Have fun!"
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  3. #13

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    I guess I forgot to mention that I have actually used a view camera before, but it was quite a while ago. I liked it.

    The local camera clubs are all digital now...

    Thanks for the advice.

  4. #14

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    Quote Originally Posted by AutumnJazz View Post
    I guess I forgot to mention that I have actually used a view camera before, but it was quite a while ago. I liked it.

    The local camera clubs are all digital now...

    Thanks for the advice.
    How do you feel about the work of Roman Loranc, John Sexton, and O.Winston Link?
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  5. #15

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    I haven't seen their work before...but Loranc's looks...amazing. The lighting in his pictures just makes them so striking and powerful...I love them.

    How does he do that? Is it just his compositional skills? I just utterly love his style.

    I can't seem to find anywhere, online that is, to see Sexton's work.

    Link's night photography looks very, very interesting.

  6. #16

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    All these guys used Linhof Technikas. Loranc and Sexton use mainly 210mm lenses. They could have just as easily used $100 Calumet monorails (I suspect maybe O. Winston Link did some handheld work though) The talent comes from the photographer. Using gear you enjoy working with will help get you through the drudgery (this I learned from John Sexton and Edward Weston wrote about this in his Day Books as well)
    The trouble is, in order to find what you'll enjoy working with requires time, experience and commitment.

    It is kind of like dating. You can rest assured that you won't really "know" a girl until you've shared food poisoning from bad take out chinese.

    It is the same way with view cameras IMHO
    "I would feel more optimistic about a bright future for man if he spent less time proving that he can outwit Nature and more time tasting her sweetness and respecting her seniority"---EB White

  7. #17

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    Oh believe me, I know that the camera doesn't matter. Why do you think I'm looking into a view camera and not a D700 or 5D? I want the movements and extra control they afford me. The larger negative is just a plus.

  8. #18

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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    Since you mentioned macro work, remember that bellows extension can be a limiting factor. To make a photo at 1:1 ratio, you need bellow draw equal to 2x the focal length of a lens - more if you want to get closer still.

    So with a "normal" lens like 150mm on a 4x5 camera, you will need at least 300mm of bellows draw. If you want to use a 210 lens, you will need 420 or more - and that precludes most field cameras.

    Field cameras which offer long bellows draw, include the Ebony, the Canham DLC45, and the Wisner Technical Field. Ebony and Canham cameras rarely appear on the used market. Wisners are a bit more easy to find, but not commonplace. There's a reason for all of that.

    I got my used Wisner Technical Field for $ 600, which is less than the price of new field cameras made in China, and which offer less features. Wisner may now be out of business (a controversial question), but my Wisner camera is not. My used Sinar P cost the same $ 600, with case and extension rail. Since I rarely trek with the camera, and it converts to 5x7 in a moment, it gets most of the use, indoors and out.

    While Schnieder lenses are as good as they get, you might want to Google the word "Schneideritis". Nuff said on that. There are other lenses of equivalent quality and coverage, but which are smaller, lighter, and more affordable. See here for some, with accompanying sample images.

  9. #19
    Louie Powell's Avatar
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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    You've asked a lot of question! Here are a few answers:

    - "I had been shown the path of the Zone VI, and I was looking into getting the last bail-back model camera that was made before Zone VI was bought out by Calumet. I was reading about it, and comments about its excessive weight, drawn-out set-up/take-down process, and unprotected ground glass when closed turned me off of it"

    Don't believe everything you read. Better yet, try the camera and make your own decision. The Zone VI is not excessively heavy. The fact is that when you put the camera in a bag along with a couple of lenses and half a dozen holders, the difference in weight between the original Zone VI and the newer lightweight Zone VI is nothing.

    The setup/takedown process for the Zone VI is neither difficult nor time consuming. Regardless of which camera you choose, you will either learn how to manipulate it, or you will become frustrated and sell it.

    I'm not aware of any field camera that has inherent ground glass protection. GG protectors are cheap, and if you are clever and handy you can make your own.

    Finally, the last Zone VI model (the Lightweight) was introduced by Calumet and it had a bail back just like the last model that Picker made.

    - "That is to say, I want a camera that I can set up and pack away quickly."

    OK - two responses to that one. First, practice, practice, practice. Tillman Crane includes a "five minute picture" exercise in his LF workshops to teach students how to quickly manipulate their cameras.

    Second - why? For me, the whole point of LF is to slow down to really study the image and approach the making of an image in a careful and thoughtful way. If you want fast, stick with 35mm or go digital.

    - "Are there other lenses I should be considering for what I want to do?"

    I suggest starting with a 210mm. Whether it's Schneider, Rodenstock, Nikon or Fuji is not especially important. I chose Caltar - 'Rodenstock in drag'. After you have worked with it for a while, you will know what your next lens should. be. And remember that you don't want to be a lens collector - LF lenses are heavy and expensive. Most people get by with one or two lenses and a pair of shoes in which to walk closer to the subject in order to change the framing.

    - "I would say that overall my budget for camera, lenses, film holders, etc. is $2,000"

    That's easily oable, especially with used equipment. And there's a lot of good used stuff out there.

    - "I don't want something that will start to fall apart in a few years, I want a tank."

    Two comments on this one. First, don't drop your camera. Seriously, with LF, that's about the worst thing that can happen, and even then most cameras are repairable. Richard Ritter even has a video on making emergency repairs in the field - that he made by wrecking a Zone VI and then patching it back together with stuff that he bought in WalMart. Including an ad-hoc ground glass that he made from a cheap plastic picture frame.

    Second, the most rugged camera you can buy today is probably an old Crown Graphic. That might not be a bad starting point if you are uncertain about your level of commitment to LF.

  10. #20
    All metric sizes to 24x30 Ole Tjugen's Avatar
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    Re: Please help me choose the right 4x5 field camera for me...

    The only thing "schneideritis" affects is the retail value, which IMO is a good thing for someone on a budget. "Rodenstockitis" is worse - that's delamination of cemented groups...

    BTW, I have compared a Zone VI to a Gandolfi and a Linhof Color too. Compared to those two, it's best used as kindling,

    I bought my Gandolfi Variant (I, upgraded) a couple of months ago for EUR 690, including bag bellows and a few extra lens boards. After the recent flurry of exchange rate changes, I figure that $800 should cover it.

    PM for full details.

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