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Thread: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

  1. #71
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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by BradS View Post
    A condition for stability is that the points defined by the leg tips all be in the same plane....and, I guess that the plane be tangent to the ground at those same points. Notice that this does not require the ground to be a plane!
    1. Any support that is out of balance (the CG is not over the centroid of the feet positions) will load the legs differently. Yet many supports are stable and don't wobble even though loaded unequally. Clearly, then, equal loading is not necessary to prevent wobble. (I'm not saying that you are saying this--I'm just laying out some thinking.)

    2. All structural systems deflect. That means that they are all compliant--the bits all deform (without damage, we hope) in response to a load. There is no material I know of that shows zero strain when under stress.

    3. Natural ground does not form a plane at the scale relevant to this discussion.

    4. If all the feet are in contact with the ground and carrying a load, the support will not wobble freely, though it may deform as load and balance varies.

    5. But if the load does not shift, the stress on each component will not change, and therefore neither will the strain.

    6. There are some transient loads on a camera, such as wind. Their effect will always be movement in the system. The requirement is to keep that movement below the circles of confusion at the image plane, just as we apply when considering, say, depth of field.

    7. Thus, on a calm day, if all legs are in contact with the ground, there will be no movement, no matter how variously those legs are loaded.

    8. On a windy day, the system will move, but this is as true with tripods and with supports of any number of legs above two.

    9. The tricky bit is making sure all legs are in contact with the ground. And I think this is where you have hung your hat.

    10. But (and this is the hook my hat is hanging on), since there is compliance in the system, all that is required to make sure all legs are in contact with the ground is sufficient adjustability so that the fourth leg can be made to touch the ground and carry a load within the range of the system compliance. I don't think this is all that hard to do, conceptually. I have nothing to say about execution, not having seen the product.

    If you will note, I have stated only what I find in the ethics laws, and left it for you and others to examine your own statements. I have made no accusations, nor have I attempted to call into question any particular statement. I consider it defining a boundary, as I see it, and leaving it for each person using his engineering credentials to analyze the product to decide for themselves where they are in relation to that boundary. In a court, statements made by someone claiming to be an engineer that could be shown to have caused financial harm to a product maker without making a proper analysis, could be subject to a complaint. Highly unlikely, of course, but it does happen--just read the engineering board newsletters.

    (Obviously, I am not accusing you of ethics violations. To do so, I would have to connect your specific behavior with a specific ethics clause, which I have not done. Think of it as, "Be careful, in some states that could construed as..." which is not in any way an accusation, nor do I mean you any animosity at all. As to what others think, or whether it strengthens or weakens an argument--that is not my concern. Most others who are still reading this should decide to evaluate the product for themselves, which is exactly my recommendation)

    Rick "very careful about language when signing as an engineer" Denney

  2. #72

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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by BradS View Post
    A condition for stability is that the points defined by the leg tips all be in the same plane....
    No, the leg TOPS must be in the same plane, which is assured by the rigidity of the tripod base. Since the legs can be adjusted independently, both in terms of length and angle, the planar argument is a canard.

    I suspect that the quadrupod will take more work to set up than a tripod (because it's an extra leg), but I have yet to see any valid argument to support the assertion that it won't be as stable as a tripod.

    I frequently set up my tripod with the base at an odd angle, and the legs splayed out at odd angles and uneven lengths, and use the ballhead to level the camera if I need it level. If any of the arguments for why a quadrupod wouldn't be as stable as a tripod had any merit, I wouldn't have been able to get sharp shots with my tripod set up that awkwardly, yet it hasn't been a problem even with the 4x5.

  3. #73

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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    I am going to defer to Rick's excellent analysis above and agree with him that each individual needs to perform his own evaluation and draw his own conclusions.

  4. #74
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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    We have been getting razor sharp images from tripods using 35mm up to 20x24 cameras for a very long time. All you need is to open your wallet. The problem with tripods is not having 3 or 4 legs, the real problem is finding one that doesn't become loose, and is able to stay tight for 20 years of pro use. You can mount it in concrete, but if the components are loose, you have junk.
    Amen. You don't see me offering my Bogen 3036 legs for sale, and I have two sets, both of which have seen extensive service over at least that long a period. Both are a bit rattly, actually, but they still hold cameras still. The lockable and adjustable center column brace on each leg is particularly useful for increasing stiffness.

    But they are heavy suckers.

    Here's a scenario to consider: I once wanted to get my Cambo lower to the ground than I could with the 3036 legs and the 3047 head, which sits very tall. So, I tilted the tripod head over to one side, which put the entire camera to one side of the center column. I had to spread the legs just about to full spread to keep it from tipping over, especially when pushing and pulling film holders. I could have greatly decreased its tendency to tip with a fourth leg. The full spread also loads the legs in bending to a greater extent than compression, and approximately round or square legs (of whatever material) will always be more flexible in bending than in compression.

    Execution is, of course, everything. I cannot conceive, however, of how I would be able to comment on execution without having actually handled the product or made an inspection of how it was designed.

    I agree without reservation that a four-leg support can hardly help but be more fiddly.

    I am not defending the product--I've never even seen a picture of it. But the concept of the design is not as silly nor as unworkable as some have assumed it to be, assuming the execution is good enough to satisfy the requirements that derive from that concept. And for a thousand bucks, the execution had better be flawless, of course.

    My local camera store (Ace Photo in Virginia) has one on order, or so Moe tells me. If I happen by while it's there, I will play with it some and comment further.

    Rick "who can't afford it no matter what" Denney

  5. #75

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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Rick,

    Stop by there on Thursday. We are shipping his order today or tomorrow. He ordered it with center column and with the aluminum legs. The center column version is heavier then the non-center column B version by 0.44 lbs (200 g) and the legs will be heavier then their carbon counterpart by 1 lb.

  6. #76
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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    But when we all go one day all digital, with a very light dslr, how many of us will need a 4 pod?
    A 600mm f/4 lens still has to have a front barrel diameter of 150mm, at least effectively. And since format is the primary determinant of basic quality, I see the trend going to more digital in larger formats, not less. I don't think my Canon 5D is particularly smaller or lighter than my F-1.

    Looking at the weight of the tripod that Bob is describing, my suspicion is that this is not an approach to make the monsters we use more stable, but rather a way to make much smaller and lighter tripods stable enough to use with big honking lenses. I'll try to go see one this week and report back.

    Rick "not thinking Novoflex even intends this as any other than a niche product" Denney

  7. #77

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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    collars design/materials (that can withstand rotational forces and will not loosen with heavy pro use, bushings used to maintain tightness leg width and wall thickness to reduce vibration, 3 or 4 extensions per leg, and most important is weight).These other variables could mean one crappy 4 pod by Novaflex.
    All else aside, how do you know whether or not this thing's built well? Have you seen one in person? What do you think of Induro and Feisol? How about Chamonix? Not long ago, they were all newcomers, but by your logic, no one should consider one because they're new, and everyone should just get a Gitzo.

    In spite of that, Feisol and Chamonix at least get lots of recomendations here since they turned out to be quality products... and Novoflex isn't exactly a new company, they've been around even if they haven't been making tripods, and their reputation is pretty good.

    If this new quadrupod isn't built like a tank, at a kilobuck it would probably be more than just a flop, so I'm betting that Novoflex put some effort into quality on this one. I'm sure they know a little something about the competition...

    As to whether or not the extra leg will be useful, I'll wait for the field reports. I may be open-minded, but I'm not sold on the extra leg, either.

  8. #78

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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    Well, at $1000 for the Novaflex, that puts you into the high end market for tripods, so I brought up Gitzo. Now Induro, Feisol....these are 1/3 the cost. Chamonix is also a nice camera for the under $1000 range....but it is not high end, it is not a Linhof or Ebony or Horseman or Toyo or Sinar or Alpa or Sylvestri or Fotoman.
    The cost, whether it's high end or low end, isn't the point. The point is that you're trying to claim that the Novoflex quadrupod is a crappy product because it's from a company new to making camera supports.

    The fact that Induro and Feisol aren't as expensive as Gitzo doesn't change anything; not long ago, they were both newbies and therefore unknown quantities, and now they get recommended pretty frequently because it turned out that their products are quite good. Nowhere did I compare either one to Gitzo.

    Again the comment comes up "have you seen one"? Please, read previous comments on that.
    It sounds like you should take that advice instead, since it sounds like you're trying to put words in my mouth.

  9. #79

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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    Quote Originally Posted by Van Camper View Post
    I didn't say a Novaflex is a crappy product....I said until you consider all the other variables that make up a good tripod
    Actually, you did. I happen to agree that until we see it we have no way of knowing for sure whether or not it's any good, and that the extra leg isn't going to matter if it's not, but I also didn't claim that it would be a great product, only that Novoflex has made other good products.

    have you seen a Gitzo, better yet....do you own a gitzo or two?
    Just one.

    "The Induro gets recommended pretty frequently " ...sure, sure in that price range. No one expects it to compare with a linhof or gitzo.
    I didn't say otherwise... but that doesn't change the fact that not long ago, Induro was completely unheard of, and yet now is a fairly well established brand based on quality.

    No one gets it right the first time, and while gitzo is celebrating its 90th year, do you really believe Novaflex can get it right in YEAR ONE??? Some things take years of pro use to show its weak points, requiring constant refinements. But, no one is stopping you from spending your hard earned money.
    You really should learn to read more carefully. I haven't been trying to convince anyone to buy one of these new toys, and I also pointed out that it isn't for me.

    It sounds like you're just getting desperate to back your own arguments, rather than simply accepting that the only logical thing to do here is to wait and see.

    I also think that given the price point, that quadrupod had BETTER be VERY robust, because that price tag puts it in a position to compete directly with Gitzo, which is a high bar to live up to.

  10. #80
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    Re: New Novoflex 4 leg tripod system at Photokina

    First Look at Novoflex Quadrupod C3.

    Firstly--I don't know if there are different sizes. I only looked at one size. This one wasn't a tripod with the option of a fourth leg--the design of this required all four legs.

    Short answer: Beautifully made, but I think unsuited for large format. It is suited for the guy who owns a Leica M8.2 just because it's a Leica, and that guy probably won't regret the purchase (or subject the thing to the same abuse many of us might).

    The legs come in a separate box, and screw very precisely into the head using a 1/4-20 thread. Thus, with a flat plate to act as a washer, each leg could be used as a high-quality monopod. The locks are twist locks, and I had to crank them down quite tightly not to slip when I leaned on the tripod. The middle section is calibrated for height every inch or two.

    The center column is too light for large-format cameras, and is a friction fit. There is a hook on the bottom for a bag (or a pretty girl).

    The leg mounts have about four positions, and only four positions. They cannot be locked to a specific angle. There are no center braces. Thus, to maintain the contact of all four legs on the ground, the feet must lock into the ground surface reliably. The feet are spikes with screw-out rubber feet, ala Manfrotto. I think the four leg design will be quite reasonable on natural ground with the spikes, and subject to slippage and rocking on hard, smooth surfaces. The only way to adjust the leg position against one of the angle stops on the central casting is by adjusting the height, and I found it rather fiddly.

    The quality of the finish and the machine work is jewel-like, and as pretty as any camera support I've ever seen. Gitzo and Manfrotto are just workaday by comparison.

    The aluminum legs are no more stiff than the medium-weight aluminum legs of Induro or Manfrotto legs, and less stiff than Gitzo legs of the same size. Wooden and carbon composite legs of the same weight are stiffer and with better damping.

    After looking at it for a while, I gingerly and with great caution put it all back in its boxes. The top and center column portion was priced in the middle 600's, and near as I could tell did not include the legs.

    Conclusion: give me a set of Bogen 3021 legs and a cheapie Indian knockoff gimbal mount for a long lens on a small camera any day, and let me not worry about bouncing it down the driveway or in the trunk of the car. Or bigger legs and a Bogen 410 geared head for large format with the same lack of concern for dings and chips in the paint. I'd be scared of scratching this stuff--it's just too pretty.

    But there will be folks who will queue up to buy it, I'm sure. And for what they get, it is no doubt beautifully made.

    Rick "who admittedly swims at the other end of the pool" Denney

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