Plumbing for Water Temp Control + Darkroom Plans

[Ken Lee]

I think Michael's point is a reasonable one, even if a bit enthusiastically stated.

[David A. Goldfarb]

Good grief.

I continue to be amazed at how cheap people in LF photography can be when to comes to the darkroom, chemistry or fiilm nearly giving themselves medals when it come to the lowest cost expended and then turn around a drop a couple of big ones on a camera or lens. Come on guys.

I learned a long time ago that it is important to use the right tool for the task at hand.

Solid American companies designed and manufacture the right tool for this job.

Time for me to head to the field and make some photographs.....

Maybe you need to upgrade your water supply, get a bigger hot water heater, increase the size of the feed pipes and add an elevated water tank to meet the demand, add a chilling unit, and insulate all pipes to maintain even temperature, so that it doesn't fluctuate so much. Why not fix the problem at its root? Too expensive? You found a cheaper solution? Good enough for the job? Works for you?

You need to consider that not everyone has the same circumstances, and different solutions work in different situations, and that there are matters other than cost that might lead one to a less costly solution. Like most New Yorkers, I live in a rented apartment, so any changes that I make to plumbing need to be easily reversible in case we decide to move, which is pretty likely, I'd say, in the next five years. Since the system I have actually does work with my water supply, then adding a more highly automated system, which would entail breaking plaster and tile, adding new wiring, and repairing plaster and tile with the prospect of having to pull it all out and restore it to the previous state hardly makes any sense to fix a problem I don't have.

It is worth remembering that a darkroom with running water is better than what many people have, and that many fine prints have been made in darkrooms that have no temperature control at all beyond a thermometer and hot and cold taps.

[ic-racer]

I learned a long time ago that it is important to use the right tool for the task at hand.

.

I'm wondering you guys are doing with this exact tempered water from the faucet? What's the 'task at hand?' Obviously if you need it for a commercial processor, thats a no-brainer, but why else, just curious? I left space in the design of my darkroom for the $1200 Jobo water panel, but never bought it because it is NOT NEEDED with the processor I wound up getting.

[aduncanson]

I'm wondering you guys are doing with this exact tempered water from the faucet? What's the 'task at hand?' Obviously if you need it for a commercial processor, thats a no-brainer, but why else, just curious? I left space in the design of my darkroom for the $1200 Jobo water panel, but never bought it because it is NOT NEEDED with the processor I wound up getting.

Exactly. In my B&W only darkroom, I am using my mixing tap to obtain the temperature water required to properly dilute my developer and result in my preferred developer temperature. After that I use it to assure that the water in my my holding tray (for prints) is close to the temp of my other chemicals and then to set my wash water to near 80 degrees for an efficient wash. This last purpose is the only time when I expect it to hold a temp constant for a long period of time, and as nobody other than me is going to be using water in my household when I am in the darkroom, I don't have a problem. Perhaps this solution works for me also, because I need relatively little hot to get my wash water up to to 80 deg. Another part of the solution could be a point of service water heater.

Now I might leave prints washing in the darkroom and run a sink of hot water in the kitchen and thereby perturb my carefully set wash temp. In that case, perhaps I am causing a problem, but I would not notice it because I am in the kitchen at the time. In any case the problem does not seem to be too serious to me. Obviously, if I were doing a more temperature critical process then this would not be sufficient and I certainly did not mean to suggest that this simple manual process is right for everyone.

[Michael Kadillak]

It is a fact that when a photographer takes control of the variables that affect his photography, he is likely to generate more consistent results. Temperature control is one of these variables that should be managed as closely as is possible.

In my basement darkroom the ambient temprature in the winter can be 62-65 degrees. In the summer it can be 68-74 degrees. When I develop film I use a tempered water bath after I use an aquarium heater to get me close to my standard developing temp. For my printing sessions I use a similar tempered water bath and the developer temp stays at the precise setting without any need of diverting my attention to look at a temp dial.

Given the ever escalating price of film (that is likely to abate any time soon) and the value I place on my time to be in the darkroom doing what I love to do I am reminded of what one of my engineering professors used to aspouse to us in college - the answer can only be as accurate as the least accurate input.

Every once in a while someone needs to challenge general conventionality. If we all agreed on everything or did not provide a rebuttal for fear of being out of sync we would get nowhere together rather quickly.

Cheers!

[Clay Turtle]

Ken,

if you want to keep the costs down but have an effective system for only a few dollars, buy three on / off values and one threaded water temp gage. use the hot and cold one off to set the temp and the third for an exit on off facet.

Solder the hot and cold together but not in a manner that could create flow back. Solder in a threaded brass section for the gage, then down along the sink the final faucet connected to a hose. You are set for 50 dollars or less.

There are issues to this inexpensive but effective system.
You should shut the hot every night to prevent flow back into the rest of the system.
You need to let it run to keep the temp constant. even if only at a trickle.
If you close the flow, and reopen later, it will come back but will take a minute or two to stabilize.

If you would like, I will take a few pix of mine tonight and post them for you.

What is needed is a backflow preventer in the lines in.

back flow preventers are basically the same thing as the foot valve used for well pumps

A cheap set are located in the garden department & are sold as a code requirement to keep ground water from entering the system due to negative pressure. They are hose to hose type couplings but the bad news is they release pressure byreleasing water so you would have to have them over the sink. Actually, these items [back flow] are fairly common & come with a various connection. (MIP => male pipe thread are a standard)

[Allen in Montreal]

Clay,

That is a good idea.

I built this darkroom long before E bay and the internet, with no one really to turn to for help, I patched it together after having looked at the guts of the 1k plus Wing Lynch setup at the newspaper. At the time, I found it easy to get in the habit of shutting the hot water valve after every darkroom session. Since I do not need chillers in my application, it is perfect for my needs still to this day and once adjusted, holds the temp until the tank runs out of hot water.

What is needed is a backflow preventer in the lines in. A cheap set are located in the garden department & are sold as a code requirement to keep ground water from entering the system due to negative pressure. They are hose to hose type couplings but the bad news is they release pressure byreleasing water so you would have to have them over the sink. Actually, these items [back flow] are fairly common & come with a various connection. (MIP => male pipe thread are a standard)

[Keith Pitman]

I used two Powers thermostatic valves in my darkroom: one for mixing solutions, and the other attached to film and print washers. The second one of these was found on Ebay and purchased brand new for $50--a terrific find. I had a Haas valve and had problems with it, and finally sold it. I would not try another.

[Ken Lee]

Thanks again for all your help.

Up to now, I have been using a hand-held thermometer in my bathroom sink, for all of my work. Having a thermometer built-in to the plumbing, will be enough of a step up.

I rarely leave the water on long enough to encounter changes of temperature. Even for washing, I use a dish-rack film washer, so the tap never runs for more than a few minutes: just enough to fill up a small "washing tank" - which is actually a Sterilite storage container. This is one way I try to keep my photography green.

[Clay Turtle]

Maybe you need to upgrade your water supply, get a bigger hot water heater, increase the size of the feed pipes and add an elevated water tank to meet the demand, add a chilling unit, and insulate all pipes to maintain even temperature, so that it doesn't fluctuate so much. Why not fix the problem at its root? Too expensive? You found a cheaper solution? Good enough for the job? Works for you?

You need to consider that not everyone has the same circumstances, and different solutions work in different situations, and that there are matters other than cost that might lead one to a less costly solution. Like most New Yorkers, I live in a rented apartment, so any changes that I make to plumbing need to be easily reversible in case we decide to move, which is pretty likely, I'd say, in the next five years. Since the system I have actually does work with my water supply, then adding a more highly automated system, which would entail breaking plaster and tile, adding new wiring, and repairing plaster and tile with the prospect of having to pull it all out and restore it to the previous state hardly makes any sense to fix a problem I don't have.

It is worth remembering that a darkroom with running water is better than what many people have, and that many fine prints have been made in darkrooms that have no temperature control at all beyond a thermometer and hot and cold taps.

You are absolutely right but his point is not so mute. Perhaps not in the direct implication given but more I work in the dark room, the more convinced that I should revamp the system. The mixing valve lacks the back-flow preventers, the hot water is hotter as I have to (run) draw off water from the lines to get hot water. The cold & the mix temperature is so close that for b&w processing , it is virtually the same. In fact I wonder if part of the problem with running water in the house to get hot is related to the valve (at least in part)? But a bigger concern is filtering the water! I have noted that spotting seems to be a greater issues than it was previously? It is natural to assume that dust & junk on film came prior to processing but may not be accurate? Besides the possible side reactions that may come into play from chemical treatment & contamination by the city water used.
Green-wise, instant (in line) water heaters, common to Europe, may be a better solution as for a constant tempered water source?