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Thread: VDB & selenium toning. many questions

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    VDB & selenium toning. many questions

    hello,

    i had asked this question over at APUG and i am not getting too much feeed back. i think it may be because of the holiday......everyone is home and not "on the clock" doing their photo stuff. so maybe you all can help:

    i have been printing VDB for several months now and all is going fairly well. i am enjoying the process very much. i am participating in an ULF print exchange and have been doing 11x14s.

    today was the first time i tried toning the VDB. I toned after fixing. i learned a few things. 1ST 1:20 is too strong for VDB. so i ruined the test print pretty fast as you already can guess. so i read the directions. i diluted it to 1:250 (about 4ml per 1000ml) and it reduced much slower.

    so how long do i have to tone to get the archival qualities of selenium? the prints are not fully dried but i like the original brown better than the selenium brown. the selenium seems a bit more red. just a hint but the darker brown was more to my liking. so can i get the brown i want and still have a more archival print?

    i also toned some regular silver prints in 1:20. i found that it took a very long time to get a color change from my ilford warmtone RC paper. should i be using a higher dilution to get the desired color?

    i also used some agfa fiber paper. i did not leave it in for very long....maybe 4-6 min. again, no noticeable color change. the same question again, how long do i need to tone to get the archival qualities?

    i have read that the selenium will last a long time. how long? how do i figure about the replenishing bit? if i am using my 1:20 bottle and the times start running long how do i determine how much more selenium to add to keep it about 1:20? am i going to get sludge? just filter it right?

    i am sure i have more questions. as always. tanks for the help. i will try and shoot a digital picture of two of the prints tomorrow after they are dried to show the color differences...until then thanks.

    okay one more. if i am fixing my VDB for 3-4 min does this make it archival? can i skip the selenium? i am able to fix for this long and still get the look i am after. so i was thinking maybe this was good enough. thoughts?


    eddie
    My YouTube Channel has many interesting videos on Soft Focus Lenses and Wood Cameras. Check it out.

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  2. #2

    Join Date
    Dec 1997
    Location
    Baraboo, Wisconsin
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    7,697

    Re: VDB & selenium toning. many questions

    I suspect the reason for the lack of answers in APUG is that not too many people typically tone VDB in selenium. I did a lot of VDB at one time and really liked the tone that the process itself produced without any toning. Maybe others feel the same way. In any event, I never heard of any archival concerns with VDB, aren't there plenty of VDB prints still around from the 19th century? I suspect that even untoned, your prints will outlast the people in your print exchange.

    I don't think there's a definite answer to your questions about how long selenium toner lasts. In its stock form and kept in the dark it will last at least a couple years. I know because I've kept it that long and it still worked fine. In working solution I don't know, I discarded the working solution after using it and never tried replenishing it.

    With Ilford Warmtone you probably should be using a stronger solution. At least 1-10, maybe 1-4. I toned that paper in selenium a few times and the color change was dramatic and took little time - a few minutes - using either 1-10 or 1-4, I don't remember which. A typical toning time for me with any paper was 2 - 4 minutes at 1-10, my usual dilution. If you tone too long dMax can actually decrease, as Fred Newman demonstrated in the results of the tests that he published in the BTZS Newsletter many years ago.

    VDB is a great process. If you ever use it to print a 21 step wedge you'll see that you can produce a strip that shows distinct steps from 1 to 21, which is nothing short of amazing compared to normal silver paper and processes which can't do anything like that.
    Brian Ellis
    Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in their shoes. That way when you do criticize them you'll be
    a mile away and you'll have their shoes.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Aug 2006
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    Milford Pa.
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    Re: VDB & selenium toning. many questions

    thanks brian,

    i need to learn how to use a step wedge.

    i was under the understanding that VDB is not as archival because if there is any iron left in the print (i use a bit of citric acid to help remove the iron) it will oxidize the silver (here under processing) then i fix. "they" say toning helps to keep it archival. i believe i read somewhere that many of the VDB from the late 1800 did not survive, but i may be wrong.

    i also prefer the untoned look.

    how are your prints brian? have you noticed any difference? how old are they.

    any one else have other experiences?

    thanks

    eddie
    My YouTube Channel has many interesting videos on Soft Focus Lenses and Wood Cameras. Check it out.

    My YouTube videos
    oldstyleportraits.com
    photo.net gallery

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,952

    Re: VDB & selenium toning. many questions

    Quote Originally Posted by eddie View Post
    thanks brian,

    i need to learn how to use a step wedge.

    i was under the understanding that VDB is not as archival because if there is any iron left in the print (i use a bit of citric acid to help remove the iron) it will oxidize the silver (here under processing) then i fix. "they" say toning helps to keep it archival. i believe i read somewhere that many of the VDB from the late 1800 did not survive, but i may be wrong.

    i also prefer the untoned look.

    how are your prints brian? have you noticed any difference? how old are they.

    any one else have other experiences?

    thanks

    eddie
    You can tone VDBs after fixing with Kodak Selenium toner. Add 10 grams of selenium toner per liter of distilled water.

    Yes that is correct - 10 grams. You will need to weight the Kodak Selenium solution. I can't recall what volume 10 grams is but if you can't weight it let me know and I can tell what volume that is.

    Be sure you are fixing in a 3 % solution of alkaline fixer. Wash well after fixing. Tone in selenium. I one shot the selenium using 50 ml per 8x10 print which requires the use of a flat bottom tray.

    If you are really serious about toning VDBs make some gold chloride toner or palladium toners and tone before fixing, but the selenium toner works well too. If 10 grams turns out to be too hot and causes bleaching cut bact to 5 grams.

    Don Bryant

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