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Thread: What is Large Format Photography

  1. #61

    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    If I looked at a pinhole camera that used 4x5 film, obviously that is low resolution, yet I think that would qualify as large format. Move slightly past that technology to a slightly better resolving lens, and my Voigtländer Bergheil (9x12 with 4x5 adapter), and that is something I also think is large format, though unfortunately not as good resolving a set-up as my Shen-Hao with modern Schneider and Nikkor lenses. When I mount my early 1850s Holmes, Booth & Haydens lens onto my Shen-Hao, and then mount my Linhof Super Rollex 56x72 rollfilm back, does the combination suddenly cease to be large format? After all the HB&H was originally for 1/4 plate, and the Linhof back is way smaller than 4x5. Anyway, I do think 9x12 cm should be included in large format, even if it is not widely used.

    Weirdness in terminology alters usage of language: in machine vision, large format refers to 24mm by 36mm cameras, often with three chips installed; in very wide printing, large format refers to any prints wider than 72" on the shortest side. Neither of these things have any relevance on this forum, and anyone interested in this stuff can find out more somewhere else.

    Several years ago I worked on an interesting project, and some technology discussions came out of that. The future perceived limit of sensor technology, at that time, was seen as a roughly 6x4.5 sized sensor of near 100MP . . . obviously we are not there yet, though surprisingly not too far away. Pixel density and cell site sizes are more of a limit of optical resolution (not file size) than file sizes and megapixels suggest, regardless of lenses. In large format, the capabilities of our films of choice are often lens limited, and sometimes scanner limited when we choose to post process in that way. Sometimes there is lens limited digital imaging, though I think more often the sensor is the limit.

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/NikonD2X/page27.asp

    A Nikon D2X resolves nearly 63 lp/mm in this comparison with a Canon 1DsMarkII (about 50 lp/mm)(some internet sites might indicate slightly better or worse). File sizes seem to suggest even greater resolution, though that ignores the anti-alias filter, Bayer interpolation, and the dead areas between pixels. About the only semi-constant observation of sensors is that pixel size does give a rough indication of optical resolving capability. So while that Canon 85mm lens can perform decently at f5.6 or f8.0, it can be sensor limited. Interestingly the newer 1DsMarkIII is not nearly as much improvement in optical resolution as the increase in file sizes would suggest (compared to a 1DsMarkII).

    To answer a different question, the approach of using a large format camera, or a view camera, is very different from using smaller cameras. It is not just the larger film sizes, and certainly not resolution. Movements can be an advantage in many situations, though they are often subtle, and not always necessary. There can seem to be a blurring of techniques and technologies, but I think the main emphasis of this forum would suffer by diluting discussions with other formats, or other approaches, especially when those other approaches are too often considered in comparison, rather than on their own merits. In other words, if your images suck, it's not the camera.


    I enjoy the narrower emphasis here. That makes this forum such the great resource it has become. While expanding emphasis might please a few people, or lead to even more discussions, I think the end result would be to dilute the great information already here. I see no need for this forum to be all encompassing, and quite likely I would drift away from it in the event discussions went that direction.

    Ciao!

    Gordon Moat Photography

  2. #62

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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    There always are lots of sounds and fury on this subject. But for my private amusement, I like to look at upside down images reflected on my ground glass, the bigger the images, the better.

  3. #63
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    Question...is my cardboard box pinhole camera using 8x10 litho film "large format"?

    No glass on either end of the camera, no bellows, no movements (except for me carrying it around). I had an 11x14 model, but I think a student used it to pack their stuff up at the end of the semester.

    Warning it was a rhetorical question...

    Vaughn

    PS...Thanks Ralph.

  4. #64

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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    This really is a no brainer.
    Large format cameras are just that.
    There is no need to re-interpret.
    It is not a elitist position or, like has been mentioned before, a pissing match on who has the bigger tool.
    Myself, I almost always use a 4x5 speed graphic with probably leaky bellows(I say probably because I prefer being in denial).
    If I am interested in some info about 35mm or MF I go in another forum.

    I am an Anarchist, I have nothing against Democracy,but I realize that this forum shouldn't be either.
    The founder and moderators have drawn guidelines that should be respected.

  5. #65
    Vaughn's Avatar
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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    Unless some limitation is hit, I suspect that handheld cameras capable of 40+ MP are in our future. Using MP to define LF seems to be too changable...today's "large format" will be tomorrow's "small format".

    In the end, I would just have to say that true Large Format Photography is based on film capture (tho the size of the LF film is and probably always will be debatable -- as well as the use of roll film in a LF camera, LOL!). Your new definitions just don't fit, and trying to fit them into the definition of LF limits them...like trying to shove an elephant into a crate designed for a lion. They are a subset of digital photography, not of large format photography.
    If you are indeed saying, as it sounds, that in this case format equals size equals medium, than I can see why this question keeps popping up every once in a while.

    marco..."You are right to say that today's large format will be tomorrow's small one. After all, didn't this exact transformation happen with 4x5 already? "Large" and "small" seem to be pretty relative qualifiers and as such should be considered in the contemporary context. The problem is that the window that defines contemporary seems to be moving faster than some people's ability or willingness to adopt the the change.

    So:

    Q1: Why film only?
    Q2: Why not digital?
    Q3: Why not new definitions?"


    I put small and large format in quotation marks to denote that they refer only to MP size -- not film size. Sorry this was not clear.

    A1, A2 and A3 ..Ralph pretty much answered these. My comments should have been in relation to this forum and its purpose...not what the world in general wishes to call larger format.

    Should a forum based on watercolor or oil painting include using digital drawing pads? Or are those painters just not willing to adapt to change? (I am assuming there are forums for just painters of different media.)

    Vaughn

  6. #66
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by jetcode View Post
    Judging by your watercolors (which I admire) I'm surprised you even use a camera.

    I have an 8x20 landscape (print size) in the local art show and the show coordinator called me about my 2 hour slot to watch the gallery. He then proceeds to go on about how the art teachers are taking their classes to the show and teaching the kids "why painting is better than photography" ...

    apparently the war on art is not limited to this forum ...
    Thank you Joe, for the nice comment. For the record I started with a camera. When I went to school, I had to take Art 101 and found out that "the art world" seemed to like my scribblings. When I wanted some scans made and found out the price, I started to do it myself, thus a business was born.
    Greg Lockrey

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    Money is just a tool.
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  7. #67
    jetcode
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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by Hugo Zhang View Post
    There always are lots of sounds and fury on this subject. But for my private amusement, I like to look at upside down images reflected on my ground glass, the bigger the images, the better.
    I can't imagine trying to view an image on a 16x20 and 8x10 is a bit of a stretch and 4x5 too small but 5x7 and 4x10 are just right for me. That said if a scene is truly beautiful I'd rather spend time in it without my camera then to experience the scene from a reproduction, the best being when I get to have both experiences.

  8. #68
    jetcode
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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Parker View Post
    Well Ralph all I have to say is:



    You hit it directly on the Head!
    nice image ... is that from a 4x5 or 8x10?

  9. #69
    jetcode
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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    I don't think dilution is necessary or adding new topics I think I am truly interested in exploring art and composition, an expansion of my own creative processes.

    I have no real interest in 35mm or MF or LF or Digital except as tools to express art through. I just saw some Gum Bichromates that were drop dead gorgeous. I get emails from LF members who don't post here and for mostly for one reason:

    They don't want to get beat over the head for mentioning Tuna while we debate Salmon. It's all fish!

    Many LF photographers have embraced digital technologies. At this point I am more interested in art, composition, and creativity, and am actively seeking this outside of this forum: no problem.

  10. #70

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    Re: What is Large Format Photography

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    A1, A2 and A3 ..Ralph pretty much answered these. My comments should have been in relation to this forum and its purpose...not what the world in general wishes to call larger format.
    Well, in his post Ralph is defining Large Format "as it has been understood over the last 20-30 years". My point is that digital started coming into the mainstream less than 10 years ago and it is now at the point where some old definitions cease making sense or are becoming historical at the very best. It is precisely how individual aspects of photography are understood that we are discussing here.

    I still believe that the questions I raised are valid in the context of this forum, unless deus ex machina says they are not. The last paragraph in Ralph's post sounds very much like he is indeed saying just that. That may be the end of the discussion, but answer to the questions raised it is still not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaughn View Post
    Should a forum based on watercolor or oil painting include using digital drawing pads? Or are those painters just not willing to adapt to change? (I am assuming there are forums for just painters of different media.)
    Probably not, but the forum on painting still should.

    The last time I checked, film exclusivity was the mission statement over at apug but not here. Again, unless the powers that be decide that it is, but then a public announcement would be in order, or at least a nice touch.

    BTW, it's MarKo...

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