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Thread: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

  1. #1

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    Thumbs up Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    I have seen the 72XL listed on Ebony's site and have seen people say it can cover with a pinch of falloff on 4X10.

    90mm XL is next in line. It is right on the edge of covering according to IC. Schneider is underrated, but just how much the IC is underrated with this lens I do not know. I am sure others can chime in and say what they have experienced with this lens on Whole Plate or 4X10 and how useable it is for movements.

    Moving on is the Schneider 110mm XL. This one covers and gives excellent room for movements. Well, not like having it on a 4X5, but still.

    I know there are others past 110mm, but I'm going to stick to these three for now and see what people with Whole plate OR 4X10 are using as their wide lens of choice and why.

    Another question has to be, can that 72XL make it for Whole Plate per Ebony's Spec sheet OR are they a bit "out there" thinking it can? Say it falls off a tad, how much of an image would one have left...a 6X8?...a 5.5X8.5? Trying to get an idea of how much sheet film this lens can cover with edge to edge, top to bottom sharpness.


    Here's how I see it:

    1) 72mm can make it. It has been proven on 4X10 which I believe is slightly more surface area than the Whole Plate area. However, just how well can it cover "and", is it really a lens to consider or should one "at least" step up to the....

    2) 90mm XL: This one has enough IC on base specs to basically "just cover". Given Schneider's specs and that the 110 XL can cover 8X10 "just barely", though it is rated 25mm's less IC than is needed to cover the 8X10 sheet, and if the 72XL can somehow pull into barely covering a Whole Plate sheet with, again, basically 25mm's more IC than stated to have, does the 90mm actually follow these other lenses and have some magical 285mm's of IC=plenty enough for even some movements on Whole Plate? OR, is this lens spec'd about right and the best it can do is cover Whole Plate, maybe with minimal movements, and that's it? Exactly how much movement ability would the 90 XL give for Whole Plate?

    3) 110XL: Now we're starting to get out of the wide wide zone and into a wide zone. This one will most certainly cover Whole Plate and then some. But just how wide is this one on Whole Plate and is it "wide enough"? I have to question why one wouldn't go with something like the 115 Grandagon or 120 Nikkor in this situation. Both can be had for $500-$550 vs. $1200 for the 110XL. Both are heavier than the XL, sure, but I think one can get around with a little more weight to save $700 in expense. It almost places the Grandagon in line with either the 72 or 90 for use as a wide. In other words, as a wide wide, the 72 or 90 would do the trick, but for movements and still having a wide lens, the 115/120's would work fine. Even the SA 120 can be had at times for $400...very cheap, again, vs. the 110XL.

    So aside from weight, why would anyone use the 110XL over the 115/120's? Question seems to be answered reasonably in a sense that the 110XL may be the only lens one may need for their wide coverage on WP, and that lighter weight combined with a few more mm's of focal difference can come into play very well.


    I've put down my thoughts here...what is everyone else's take on the XL based wides for WP and especially, where do the 72/90 fit into the equation, and how would the 110 make sense over the other candidates that are more than 1/2 the price?

    Thanks all for your contributions...as a side note, I love shooting VERY WIDE, but at the same time, I do not like having ONE lens that can "barely" make it wide...which means the answer is either have a 72 OR 90 along with a 115/120...OR, have a 110 and whatever other lenses there on up.

    Long post, sorry..hope it is not too congested!

  2. #2
    All metric sizes to 24x30 Ole Tjugen's Avatar
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    Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    My experience with Super Angulons (not XL's though) is that they cover exactly what they are stated to cover, and not a millimeter more. The image circle clips rather abruptly.

  3. #3
    Sheldon N's Avatar
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    Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    The image circle required for Whole Plate is roughly 271mm (maybe slightly less if you look at just the exposed area of the film).

    The 72xl is spec'd at 226mm image circle, the 90xl is spec'd at 259mm, and the 110XL is spec'd at 288. My guess is that the 72XL wouldn't cover without doing some sort of hyperfocal focusing, and that the 90XL would just barely cover. From a coverage standpoint, the 110XL is probably the best choice.

    From a field of view standpoint, the 110XL is still in the very wide territory. On whole plate, it would be roughly like a 65mm lens on 4x5. The 90XL is close to a 55mm equivalent, and the 72xl would be even wider than a 47mm on 4x5, if it would cover.

    I'd say keep the 110XL as your primary wide lens.

  4. #4

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    Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    Not sure how you conclude Ebony claims the 72mm Super Angulon XL will come close to covering. In Ebony's table here

    http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/lenses.html

    the image circle is listed as 226mm and maximum format as 5x7. Actual image area of my Lotus holders, around which Hiromi designed the SV Wholeplate, is 260.1mm. I'm not a "wide angle person," but expect you'd have a lot of falloff with the 72 even if it does light up the corners, you're only making contacts and can tolerate the inevitable low resolution.

    With a 259mm image circle, the 90XL does indeed "just cover." The 110XL is not only lighter than the Nikon 120 and Rodenstock 115, it's more compact and uses smaller filters. Yes, I know people report problems with 67mm filters contacting the front element, but I'd check into Heliopan filters before resorting to extra rings as a solution. Heliopan filter rings seem to set the glass further forward than B+W and others; this eliminated a lens/filter interference issue for me with a 135mm Apo Sironar N and 40.5mm filter.

    Sorry I can't offer any aesthetic input since my photographic seeing is "normal-long." My two primary focal lengths when using this format are 240mm and 360mm.

  5. #5

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    Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Sheldon N View Post
    The image circle required for Whole Plate is roughly 271mm (maybe slightly less if you look at just the exposed area of the film).

    The 72xl is spec'd at 226mm image circle, the 90xl is spec'd at 259mm, and the 110XL is spec'd at 288. My guess is that the 72XL wouldn't cover without doing some sort of hyperfocal focusing, and that the 90XL would just barely cover. From a coverage standpoint, the 110XL is probably the best choice.

    From a field of view standpoint, the 110XL is still in the very wide territory. On whole plate, it would be roughly like a 65mm lens on 4x5. The 90XL is close to a 55mm equivalent, and the 72xl would be even wider than a 47mm on 4x5, if it would cover.

    I'd say keep the 110XL as your primary wide lens.
    If the 110 would be like a 65, that would be just fine for me. What would a 115 be?..about 68mm?

  6. #6

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    Thumbs up Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Santamaura View Post
    Not sure how you conclude Ebony claims the 72mm Super Angulon XL will come close to covering. In Ebony's table here

    http://www.ebonycamera.com/articles/lenses.html

    the image circle is listed as 226mm and maximum format as 5x7. Actual image area of my Lotus holders, around which Hiromi designed the SV Wholeplate, is 260.1mm. I'm not a "wide angle person," but expect you'd have a lot of falloff with the 72 even if it does light up the corners, you're only making contacts and can tolerate the inevitable low resolution.

    With a 259mm image circle, the 90XL does indeed "just cover." The 110XL is not only lighter than the Nikon 120 and Rodenstock 115, it's more compact and uses smaller filters. Yes, I know people report problems with 67mm filters contacting the front element, but I'd check into Heliopan filters before resorting to extra rings as a solution. Heliopan filter rings seem to set the glass further forward than B+W and others; this eliminated a lens/filter interference issue for me with a 135mm Apo Sironar N and 40.5mm filter.

    Sorry I can't offer any aesthetic input since my photographic seeing is "normal-long." My two primary focal lengths when using this format are 240mm and 360mm.
    Here is the information on Ebony's Website:


    FORMAT 6 1/2 x 8 1/2 inch ("Wholeplate")
    WOOD Honduran mahogany
    METAL Titanium
    FOCUSING Triple-draw rack & pinion (front and back focusing)
    LENSBOARD Sinar-type (Linhof adapter board included)
    CAMERA BACK Interchangeable vertical/horizontal International Standard
    FOCUSING SCREEN Ground glass with 10mm grid
    MOVEMENTS
    (levers lock swings and shifts, knobs lock all other movements)
    FRONT Rise 75mm, Fall 35mm, Shift 50mm+50mm, Swing 20+20, Base tilt front 30, Back 90, Center tilt 30+30
    BACK Rise 80mm, Swing 20+20, Base tilt front 90, Back 30, Center tilt 20+20
    BED Drop-bed 30
    ZERO ("NULL") POSITION RESET Front swings, front/back center tilts: zero detents
    Back rise: lowest position
    Front rise/fall: zero position alignment points
    Shifts: zero position on scale
    Base tilts: zero position notches

    MIN/MAX BELLOWS EXTENSION 120mm (30mm with tilts and rise) - 730mm (830mm with tilts and rise)
    USABLE LENSES 72XL (flat board) - 1200mm (telephoto)
    With 4x5 reducing back: 58XL and 65mm with flat board,
    47XL with recessed board
    SPIRIT LEVEL FRONT One-way
    BACK Two-way with mirror
    TRIPOD SOCKETS Two, each 3/8" with one 1/4" reducing bush
    WEIGHT 4.0kg
    DIMENSIONS 27.0 (h) x 30.0* (w) x 11.0 (l) cm *including knobs


    Here is a photo on 4X10 sheet film:

    http://photo.net/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg?msg_id=004LOl

    Scroll down and check this shot out.

  7. #7

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    Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    I have the 110XL and bought a 67-72 step up and now use 72mm filters.

    I've done some testing and have not had any issues with vignetting so far.

    It's a great lens.

  8. #8

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    Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    I have a 165 Super Angulon for sale.

    It has a 395mm IC.


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    Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    This is what I have found by exposing 72Xl and 90 Xl on 8x10:

    72XL has a actual IC at f22 of 250mm when focused at infinity; 90XL has about 278mm at infinity. Hope this is helpful

    James.

  10. #10

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    Thumbs up Re: Whole Plate Wide Angle Lens Of Choice in the Schneider XL Lineup

    Quote Originally Posted by james zhou View Post
    This is what I have found by exposing 72Xl and 90 Xl on 8x10:

    72XL has a actual IC at f22 of 250mm when focused at infinity; 90XL has about 278mm at infinity. Hope this is helpful

    James.
    Thanks a lot James...I think that explains what the 72 can do when you close it down further. Sounds like the 72 would be "really" stretching it for whole plate, but maybe I can cut the film to say, 5.5X8.5...

    Wish 5X7 could produce a contact that looks as nice as 6.5X8.5 or even 8X10 (though some feel it is too squarish, it is still a nice sized print and makes the 5X7 look tiny).

    I would just shoot 5X7 along with 4X5 and use the 72, be done with it especially with more lens selection, etc. But Whole Plate really has a special quality to it...it hits that region where it is big enough to be acceptable against 8X10, and is also large enough that resolution wise, I think both are going to be very comparable in digital enlargements.

    Cheers!

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