Aztec or Tango scans

[Kirk Gittings]

Lenny, I am interested in your thoughts on what I wrote above.

I have a Masters degree in Photography, and the other person here who might touch the scanner also has a degree in Photography. It's very different when you have someone who understands what you are after with your image doing the work. You aren't going to find this in a factory setting.

While I agree with this point in general, abstracted from an MFA (I have an MFA too, but more importantly I have taught graduate students at the two top graduate programs in the country), the important thing is looking at the personal work or client list of the person scanning, whether they understand the needs of a careful expressive artist. Unfortunately this kind of attention to detail and craft is not high on the priorities of most MFA programs these days.

[Lenny Eiger]

Interesting.....a question for everyone.
I would think that any software worth it salt would apply the adjustments inside the scan delivering a full histogram file, but I have been involved in many debates concerning this very point with some arguing that all scanning software works this way and some arguing that none do. I think, this is relatively easy to detect on 8 bit files where it is easy to break the histogram. For instance run an 8 bit file basically raw and apply significant clipping and a steep curve in PS to break the histogram vs. applying the same clipping and curve in the scanning software. On even an Epson 750 with Silverfast the first example, applying the adjustments in PS will significantly break the histogram where applying the same adjustments in SF will not, delivering a full histogram. Is that a valid test of whether a given scanning software is applying the adjustments in the scan? What else would explain it?

Kirk,
I didn't respond initially as I didn't have a definite answer...

I am very sure (I would have said absolutely positive if I meant so) that none of the other software systems other than Digital PhotoLab actually has that kind of control over the scanner, which only affects the Howteks and Premiers. One would have to know about the hardware registers and how to access them and I don't think that info was published. Phil Lippincott (owner of Aztek, died last year) did a lot of engineering for Howtek before he purchased the company and had a special relationship with them.

With regard to the testing of combing.... I think this is harder to test. This is why it comes down to operator so often. If anyone has a negative and a methodology to follow, I am happy to oblige. However, I have noticed that some of the moves I do in curves in Photoshop, for instance, will comb the histogram. Can I see it on the print? Not really. I don't utilize Levels at all in my workflow. The file is often close to what I want as I have made a lot of the adjustments in the scanner software. I am just moving a little here and there in the different zones.

I think one would have to comb a lot to see it. And I think one would have to have a special image, like one of mist rising off a lake, for instance, to affect the level of sensitivity. I have one client who had me scan things al sorts of different ways, raw included and decided he like the raw scan. I looked at the files and I think he's crazy - I don't come to the same conclusion. Including that not everyone is up to correcting a raw scan in Photoshop of a color neg... How would we judge who's right?

So, it sounds like you have an idea... and maybe it will work. I seem to be jsut rambling around the topic. If you want to send me something, I'd be happy to try something out...

Lenny
EigerStudios

[Ed Richards]

> charges $40 for a 200 mb scan of 4x5

This got lost in the discussion, but assuming this is a 16 bit RGB file, it about 1300 DPI. See what they want for a 600 mb scan, which would be about 2400 DPI, then decide if it is really cheaper than other labs.

[Lenny Eiger]

While I agree with this point in general, abstracted from an MFA (I have an MFA too, but more importantly I have taught graduate students at the two top graduate programs in the country), the important thing is looking at the personal work or client list of the person scanning, whether they understand the needs of a careful expressive artist. Unfortunately this kind of attention to detail and craft is not high on the priorities of most MFA programs these days.

I also had the opportunity to teach - Parsons, Cooper Union in NY and out here at SF Academy or Art. I loved it. Don't get me started on what gets taught today.... I am so tired of work that is purely cerebral, that is about the camera, or the process, and has no content in it at all. I guess I am a traditionalist. I love the work of the greats... I don't know why everyone is so gaga over the new stuff. Give me a Dorothea Lange anytime, a Weston, or a Julia Margaret Cameron, a Stieglitz Georgia O'Keefe portrait. Something with heart...

Printing for others is an entirely different skill. It doesn't matter how good you are at making a print in your own style, what matters is whether you can make a print in the other person's style. You make subtle changes and decisions. To use a California word, it's almost like you have to "channel" the other person while you are working. You certainly have to understand their aesthetic, regardless of whether you like it or not...

Lenny

[bob carnie]

Printing for others, you must be like a chamilion, you need to change your colour or shape with every client.

I also had the opportunity to teach - Parsons, Cooper Union in NY and out here at SF Academy or Art. I loved it. Don't get me started on what gets taught today.... I am so tired of work that is purely cerebral, that is about the camera, or the process, and has no content in it at all. I guess I am a traditionalist. I love the work of the greats... I don't know why everyone is so gaga over the new stuff. Give me a Dorothea Lange anytime, a Weston, or a Julia Margaret Cameron, a Stieglitz Georgia O'Keefe portrait. Something with heart...

Printing for others is an entirely different skill. It doesn't matter how good you are at making a print in your own style, what matters is whether you can make a print in the other person's style. You make subtle changes and decisions. To use a California word, it's almost like you have to "channel" the other person while you are working. You certainly have to understand their aesthetic, regardless of whether you like it or not...

Lenny

[rodinal1]

There have been comments about the key to a good drum scan being the operator. I totally agree with that. I recently found James Beck who has many years of experience with scanning (his company name is Independent Separation). His scans are the best I have seen. His grayscale scans are outstanding. What I really like is if you call James Beck you talk to him and can directly discuss your needs.
After going through a couple other companies that offer drum scan services I know it depends upon the operator.

[Nathan Potter]

Lenny you may already know this but Lippincott filed US Patent 6,459,825 B1 and was awarded it about 2002, I think. It details a strategy of software operation for the Aztek, (mostly the high level strategy) but is interesting. Go to the US Patent Office then to SEARCH and type in the patent number. For a printed copy hit images at the top of the screen. You might find it interesting at least at a high block diagram level.

Nate Potter

[Lenny Eiger]

Lenny you may already know this but Lippincott filed US Patent 6,459,825 B1 and was awarded it about 2002, I think. It details a strategy of software operation for the Aztek, (mostly the high level strategy) but is interesting. Go to the US Patent Office then to SEARCH and type in the patent number. For a printed copy hit images at the top of the screen. You might find it interesting at least at a high block diagram level.

Nate Potter

Nate,
Interesting reading....

Thanks,

Lenny

[Bruce Watson]

The Heidelberg tango scanners have a minimum aperture of 11 microns, which is large for drum scanners. My speculation based on my research is that the small Heidelberg was aimed at the advertising market. When your biggest enlargement is a two-page spread in a magazine, 11 microns can be sufficient.

Mea culpa. I was wrong. The correct answer is that the Tango has an aperture wheel with 25 apertures, the smallest of which is 10 microns. Doesn't change my conclusions much, but there's no point in leaving wrong information hanging out there in a thread like this.

My source for this information is Karl Hudson of Hudson Grafik Services, Inc. The guy who works on and maintains these scanners should know.