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Thread: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

  1. #21

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    Rather old thead brought back to life QT. So readers note the first section of posts are from that old period.

    I think that quote about being archival blah blah is somewhat dated and not likely what he might toss out today several years later. At the time his information seemed to say he was excited about the huge 11 stops or so of exposure latitude he was seeing on the cameras of the day. So yeah he could make some prints out in mid day light that film simply did not have the dynamic range to hold. I first saw one of Stephen's scanning back prints at a Seybold exhibition in San Francisco in the late 90s. A time when I was newly involved with early digital processes like CS Lightjet prints and 3.01 Photoshop and about to move to 6x7 and 4x5. Was hoping to learn something about color management systems and did buy a book at the show. He had a couple prominent large prints displayed and I brought back his freebee poster of Mt St Helens. Another large print of a bush against sandstone somewhere in the SW was very impressively sharp.

    He seems to still embrace a "tiny jpgs on the web" mindset that due to downsizing kills vast amounts of interesting features in his web-sized pics. For instance those snow pics that look like blocked up white or shadow areas that are simply black would not look like that on a print haha. To make a comment about that shows a lack of experience with what digital downsizing tends to do. I will agree that his selection of many subjects are rather weak. Pretty much like the vast numbers of photographers that have not figured out how to find and locate exceptional subjects and or don't have the awareness, time, or patience to sit on the truly exceptional. One problem some photographers, even some with solid reputaions have is a tendency to show too much weak material with their few really strong pieces. Of course for many that are building up a body of work, that may be all they have. He isn't alone as I could name some real icons of our artform that have made some pretty mediocre coffee table picture books. I think that hurts Stephen's better material which is certainly there, though the small pics make that hard to visualize. Stephen is so firmly connected with the industry with credibility that he doesn't need to worry about our critical comments. He certainly has had a long time to develop his digital work and do so along side the equipment manufacturing reps and application wizards that create such so some of his technical skill are to be envied.

    One comment I would make about digital sensors is that color hues across luminance variations are often not that accurate until adequately calibrated against color targets with look-up tables. All tri-color sensors have some level of non-linearities across 360 degrees of hues that need to be minimized by software look-up translations. That show up most obviously with compact digital cameras that are simply mass produced around an average expected variation in sensors and then bumped up my marketing to what they think customers tend to prefer. Today that is overly red and saturated. With DSLR's there is a more serious attempt for real color but unless a photographer buys the X-rite colorimeter, and big multipatch Gretag MacBeth color targets, software, and knows how to use it, the results are rather suspect. Commercial photographers like those doing product photography that are well connected with the reps can go to pricy classes to figure that all out but the best others can do is get the important white balances set. I wish I had 10k to toss around as I personally would like to have better color calibration tools even though I am working from film At least EPN-100, Provia, and Astia render pretty well that allows we film users that are looking for reasonably accurate output to not have to bother with the shortcomings of digital. In any case color-wise, the really weak link is still at the printing end though that has improved immensely the last decade. ...David

  2. #22
    Doug Dolde
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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    To put it in few words, his photos suck.

  3. #23

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    Generally speaking, do you know examples of digital capture (I am not speaking manipulation) which has produced outstanding imagery which couldn't have been done on film before ?

    I'm intruding quite late in this discussion but I'd like to put here a pointer to the experimental work of a French LF aficionado group (leaded by Henri Gaud) with the revisited tricololor process 3-film/3-scans/digital merge/colour /print.

    Some examples here, for a future exhibition, a garden in Provence
    http://trichromie.free.fr/trichromie...une-exposition

    Based on the classical RVB separation on 3 B&W films, the use of a film like tri-X brings an exceptional dynamic range unknown to E6-type of coulour slides. I do not know the comparison with modern colour negs, but some top-class prints (1.5 metre x 2 metres) made with the revisited tri-color process are probably hard to beat with any digital capture.

    BUT
    Still or quasi-still life is mandatory (for landscape, even slow-moving clouds are impossible to register properly in the subsequent merge of the 3 RVB layers)
    The amount of film surface you need in order to get a grain-free/noise-free image is much, much bigger than the equivalent surface of silicon providing the same signal/noise ratio. No surprise : the equivalent quantum efficiencey of Tri-X film is about 0.5% whereas a silicon sensor with bayer pattern reaches 20%. Modern silicon image sensors used in astrophysics reach a quantum efficiencey of 80%.

    In other words, E-6 slides have a limited dynamic range but using a tricolor process and a generous amount of film surface, you can, if you wish, overcome the limited quantum efficiency of film and get all details you would dream of in the shadows, due to the exceptionally wide dynamic range of the good old tri-X film.
    In terms of optical resolution, there is no problem, modern LF lenses can achieve what you need in terms of sharpness. Small-sized silicon sensors demand top class lenses with wider max f-numbers in order to limit diffraction effects, a challenge for lens designers. But you can cheat and post-process for lens defaults inside the digital back ;-) So the optics might not be the real issue. The real issue is dynamic range and signal/noise ratio.
    And the amount of post-processing you need to get a perfectly calibrated print from the tricolor process is of course dissuasive in terms of productiity !
    The 1.5x2 m poster I've seen was recorded on 8x10" film (a triple Tri-X ). The image is here
    http://www.galerie-photo.com/images/...B-X4-Print.jpg
    but of course low-web-resolution is not meaningful of the actual print.
    More images & comparisons with provia film in the article (sorry... in French)
    http://www.galerie-photo.com/test-trichromie.html

  4. #24

    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    If you are going to go big, go film. This might not be true in a few more years, but right now film rules for really big prints.

    No one has mentioned reciprocity. Digital sensors do not demonstrate the reciprocity effect that film does. If a digital exposure says 15 seconds, it's 15 seconds. If you have a 15 second exposure on film, you have to guess (educated guess of course) at the correct exposure and then filter accordingly. Maybe you have to adjust developing time, too. (I have not done color photography in years. I know that black and white does require an adjustment of developing time.)

  5. #25

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emmanuel BIGLER View Post
    Based on the classical RVB separation on 3 B&W films, the use of a film like tri-X brings an exceptional dynamic range unknown to E6-type of coulour slides. I do not know the comparison with modern colour negs, but some top-class prints (1.5 metre x 2 metres) made with the revisited tri-color process are probably hard to beat with any digital capture.
    If by digital capture you mean mobile phone cameras then yes, some phones might struggle. Every single image on that page has extremely blown highlights and muddy
    colour with bad seperation. Dont say its because of web sized images because a
    blue sky doesnt turn white when you scale an image.
    I dont understand french so I am not sure what they are trying to prove but maybe
    they should have a look at colour negative film. Or maybe they like those RGB artifacts.
    Or atleast try to get a result as good as 100 years ago:
    http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/empire/

  6. #26

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    Harrykauf, perhaps you don't mean to sound as aggressive as your post. I often try to write as politely as possible so the message is understood and considered.

    I think your message relates to blown out highlights in the sky. I also looked at the article but did not see what you were speaking of. The Provia clipped on the white building perhaps.

    I think its great when people take the time to experiment with the old and new and develop personal ways of self expression and then share their efforts. I have not had a chance to look at your link but will certainly do so.

    I feel that camaraderie, encouragement and critical discussion are what makes this site so interesting.

    George
    Last edited by George Kara; 19-Feb-2008 at 07:11. Reason: clarification purposes

  7. #27

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    An additional word about the time required to record a scanned image like those recorded by by Stephen Johnson. This will generate artifacts not similar to the tricolor process but closer to the famous phenomenon of oval wheels in Lartigue's famous picture.
    And about Prokudin Gorskii : if I remember well, he used a tricolor camera with 3 images on the same sliding plate, only one lens. So there were as few artefacts as possible when the substitution of one image to the next was made quickly. It is amazing however that Prokudin Gorskii 's white clouds exhibit little colored artefacts.

    If a scan back is based on a tri-linear sensor with a single row of pixels it is not too difficult to estimate the minimum scanning time at a given ISO sensitivity ; improvements in speed seem difficult at a first glance.
    However last year, the Swiss company Seitz AG announced a fast scanning digital camera. The improvement in speed with respect to conventional scanning backs were impressive, but I am wondering whether the camera was actually introduced on the market ?
    And also : Nikon with one of his last DSLR annouces possible iso speeds of 12,000 (faster than the polaroid instant film for recording oscilloscope shots !)
    May be we are not a the end of the story for LF scanning backs ?

  8. #28

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kara View Post
    I think your message relates to blown out highlights in the sky. I also looked at the article but did not see what you were speaking of. The Provia clipped on the white building perhaps.
    I was talking about the first link:
    http://trichromie.free.fr/trichromie...une-exposition
    there is such a huge difference between the description of extreme dynamic range
    and the actual images.

  9. #29

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    Oh I didnt see these. You are right about the blown highlights. It looks like the photographers error rather than the technique.

    George

  10. #30

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    Re: Stephen Johnson and digital photography breaking new ground ?

    Quote Originally Posted by George Kara View Post
    Oh I didnt see these. You are right about the blown highlights. It looks like the photographers error rather than the technique.

    George
    Yes the technique is extremely interesting since b/w negative has such a wide
    latitude. thats why I would like to see an example that shows that. But even with
    regular colour negative its hard to blow out highlights in normal shooting conditions.

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