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Thread: Arca/Sinar/etc. Converson Camera for Kerry, John, and others...

  1. #1

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    Thumbs up Arca/Sinar/etc. Converson Camera for Kerry, John, and others...

    This one has obviously struck my fancy. My "ideal" camera, the Toho 8X10 was something I let go a while back and still kicking myself for it considering the price. Would have saved a million headaches since it was a maximum size I want to go w/exception of consideration to maybe 7X11.

    Some questions for you guys doing these conversions:

    1) Perhaps the most important question: What cameras on the used market should I be looking at specifically? I want the lightest variation regardless of what backs end up going onto it. I know Arca has been a primary one mentioned, but the Sinar system is modular also, though I am not aware of the weight involved with this one. What are all the cameras and/or parts from cameras that can be used, and more importantly, their respective weight so that I have an idea of what I can expect to see in the finalized version? In other words, say I make an Arca w/8X10 back, what would final weight be? Same for a Sinar or "any" other cam that fits the "system".

    Redundant question, but very important to me...So what would be the lightest cameras, specific models, to be on the lookout for, that would do a maximum either 8X10 or "maybe" a 7X11?



    2) What are the "essential" parts that one needs to have for starters? In other words, what standards, rails, etc. are necessary items to have for the setup?



    3) Say I wanted to have a 7X11 back....Would I be wanting to find some 8X10-4X5 type bellows? Not sure if this questions makes sense, but I say 8X10 to 4X5 bellows as the front standard is obviously a 4X5 type standard while the rear standard is 8X10 and maybe a 7X11 back as the maximum size.



    4) How much labor is involved in this kind of project?



    5) Last thing, "excluding" the labor part, if I am to find the pieces as "scraps", meaning, finding all the parts in various auctions, local sales, etc. what is an
    approximate pricepoint I can be looking at for the total sum of these parts...lets just keep things to the camera parts and say, one 8X10 back.



    Ever since seeing the Arca-Lotus design, and obviously, with my love and sadness to have seen that Toho 8X10 go for so cheap during a time when I was confused about direction and what to do, I'm really feeling that this is the "ideal" path for me due to A) Weight, B) Movements, C) If Kerry and the very nice John has done it, why shouldn't I be doing it??? ...of course D) I just think that Arca-Lotus and the Cam featured w/the 110XL are just delicious looking...look modern, clean, high-tech, and also so simplistic. I'm especially keen on the Arca Swiss w/110XL featured on the one link regarding pre-production cams. It's just a wonderfully tasteful looking device, at least for me who cares less about aesthetics, though it's always a nice bonus .

  2. #2
    Whatever David A. Goldfarb's Avatar
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    Re: Arca/Sinar/etc. Converson Camera for Kerry, John, and others...

    If you want to do this with a Sinar, the easy conversion is with the Sinar P or P2 8x10" rear standard bearer, and if you want to keep it somewhat light (but it won't be as light and compact as an Arca), then you'll probably want an F/F1/F2 front standard. Sinar sold this combination of the P rear standard bearer and the F front standard as the Sinar "C," but you can also just find the relevant parts separately on the used market.

    The P rear standard bearer has a simple post that the standard mounts to with a thumbscrew, so it's very easy to adapt any kind of wooden back to it. Check the Glennview website for some examples. Then you would probably want a custom bellows attached to the back with the standard Sinar 4x5" fitting in front.

  3. #3

    Re: Arca/Sinar/etc. Converson Camera for Kerry, John, and others...

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    This one has obviously struck my fancy. My "ideal" camera, the Toho 8X10 was something I let go a while back and still kicking myself for it considering the price. Would have saved a million headaches since it was a maximum size I want to go w/exception of consideration to maybe 7X11.

    Some questions for you guys doing these conversions:

    1) Perhaps the most important question: What cameras on the used market should I be looking at specifically? I want the lightest variation regardless of what backs end up going onto it. I know Arca has been a primary one mentioned, but the Sinar system is modular also, though I am not aware of the weight involved with this one. What are all the cameras and/or parts from cameras that can be used, and more importantly, their respective weight so that I have an idea of what I can expect to see in the finalized version? In other words, say I make an Arca w/8X10 back, what would final weight be? Same for a Sinar or "any" other cam that fits the "system".
    There are a LOT of variables to consider - in the ARCA-SWISS system alone. Throw in the Sinar system and the number of potential configurations grows even more. You've mentioned what formats you desire, but no mention of what subjects you wish to photograph. One could assume landscapes, since you are concerned about weight, but what else? Do you want to shoot WP portraits with old, fast (meaning huge and heavy) soft fous lenses? The answers to these types of questions would dictate what kind of front standard would be adequate for your needs. For example, if you only plan to shoot landscapes on 8x10/7x11 with wide to slightly long lenses, you could easily assemble a lens kit that would require nothing bigger than a Copal No. 1 shutter and a Technika size lensboard. However, if you want to use some old brass 16" f4.5 portrait lens, a 141mm Sinar board may not even be big enough. There's a reason those old studio portrait cameras took 9" lens boards. So, until we know what specific subjects you plan to shoot and what specific lenses you plan to use, we can't even begin to recommend what size front standard to recommend, let alone what camera system.

    The recent/current ARCA-SWISS system supports three different front standard sizes (110mm, 141mm and 171mm). I have standardized around the 171mm front standard for 8x10 and above and 110mm or anything smaller. That's partially a function of what I already had, or could get at the time, when I started my various camera building projects. Since that time, ARCA-SWISS has introduced their new 141mm front standard. If I was starting out today, and only shooting up to 8x10/7x11, I'd probably chose this size over the 171mm - knowing my personal needs for lenses for 8x10/7x11. This is also similar in size, but not compatible with the 141mm lensboards Sinar has been using for their cameras since the 1950s. One potential advantage to using a Sinar front standard is the ability to directly use their behind-the-lens shutter with barrel lenses. Of course, if you don't plan to use barrel lenses, this feature becomes irrelevant. Or, if you use a camera with a bigger lensboard (like the 171mm ARCA-SWISS), you can adapt a Sinar shutter to your front standard (I have done this to test/use barrel lenses with my 7x17 Franken-ARCA).

    Just as a point of reference, my 8x10 ARCA-SWISS configured with all genuine ARCA-SWISS parts, configured with enough bellows and rail to handle lenses up to 450mm (at infinity) with a 171mm front format frame, weighs 9 lb. 13 oz. The same rail configuration configured with a 110mm front standard (with geared rise and geared axis tilt) and the 4x10 prototype conversion kit shown at www.reallybigcameras.com weighs 6 lb. 12 oz. So, an ARCA based system with a wooden 8x10 (or 7x11) rear frame and back would probably weigh somewhere around 9 lb. (give or take a half pound or so).

    Next up, is how long/short do you plan to go? Depending on your personal preferences, that could be anywhere from a 47mm ultrawide on 4x5 up to a 1000mm lens on 8x10/7x11. That will determine what rail and bellows configuration(s) you will need. The nice thing about the ARCA-SWISS is you can combine different rails and extension brackets to get as much, or as little extension as you need. Sinar also has rail extensions, but thy aren't telescoping like the ARCA-SWISS. So, the Sinar cameras tend to be bulkier (and they are also generally heavier, too) for a comparable extension.

    Then there is price. You have given no indication how much or how little you are willing to spend. Personally, for my specific needs, I think the ARCA-SWISS system can't be beat. The modular nature of the system makes it ideal for these types of format conversion projects. The telescoping rails and extension brackets allow you to get as much extension as you need, but still have a camera that collapses very compactly for transport (my Franken-ARCA is the most compact 7x17 I've ever seen - and it's a full-featured monorail with gear front movements). However, ARCA-SWISS gear isn't inexpensive (but definitely worth the money, IMHO, if you can afford it). It's also not that common on the used market. So, if you go with a current/recent generation ARCA-SWISS as your base chassis, don't expect it to be inexpensive (but like I said, it's still a good value given the outstanding quality and clever system design).

    The quality of the Sinar gear is also top notch and it's MUCH more common on the used market these days. As a result, Sinar cameras and accessories can be had at ridiculously cheap prices these days. If you want Swiss quality in a well supported system camera with an abundance of affordable used accessories, it's hard to beat the Sinar system. However, as mentioned above, it's a bit bulkier and heavier than a comparable ARCA-SWISS system. So, the trade off is a much more affordable base chassis and more affordable accessories in exchange for more weight and (especially) more bulk.

    Another option, if money is an issue, would be to base your design on an older style ARCA-SWISS chassis. The older ARCA-SWISS cameras aren't fully compatible with the more recent cameras, but they share the modular design concept. They are also more common and much more affordable on the used market. Just be aware that these older models used plastic format frames, rather than metal like the newer models. So, make sure the front format frame on any camera you buy hasn't been cracked and re-glued.

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    Redundant question, but very important to me...So what would be the lightest cameras, specific models, to be on the lookout for, that would do a maximum either 8X10 or "maybe" a 7X11?
    A Toho or Gowland would be the lightest base chassis, but they aren't really in the same league, in terms of either quality or system options, as the ARCA-SWISS or Sinar.

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    2) What are the "essential" parts that one needs to have for starters? In other words, what standards, rails, etc. are necessary items to have for the setup?
    You need a front standard, a rail of some sort (length/configuration depends on your focal length requirements), a rear function carrier, and possibly a bellows (or, possibly a custom made bellows if you want 7x11 support).

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    3) Say I wanted to have a 7X11 back....Would I be wanting to find some 8X10-4X5 type bellows? Not sure if this questions makes sense, but I say 8X10 to 4X5 bellows as the front standard is obviously a 4X5 type standard while the rear standard is 8X10 and maybe a 7X11 back as the maximum size.
    Most 8x10 cameras can't accommodate a 7x11 back. Here's what I'd recommend: Make a wooden back frame big enough to support your maximum format (in this case 7x11). That would mean something like a 12½"x12½ or 13"x13" wooden frame. And then make, buy, or have made reducing backs for all the other formats you wish to shoot (8x10, WP, 4x5, etc.). Have a custom bellows made by Camera Bellows of England - best case, a single bellows that would meet all your needs. This won't result in the smallest, lightest WP or 4x5 configuration, but will result in the lightest total system weight and certainly the lowest cost. Wooden 8x10 backs are plentiful on eBay. You should be able to pick up a Kodak, Deardorff, or other good quality 8x10 back in excellent condition for around $100 - $200 (maybe a little more for a Deardorff 8x10 back in exceptional condition). It would be easy to adapt this to your rear frame. Same thing for a 4x5 reducing back. You could even get a nice rotating Cambo or Toyo 4x5 back for around $150 that you could adapt to your rear frame. If you want something newer, and don't mind spending more money, you could pay someone like Richard Ritter or Keith Canham to provide all the backs you want in the sizes you desire (just send them your rear frame - or have them make it too - to insure a light tight fit of all the backs).

    A separate conversion kit for each format would give you a smaller, lighter complete camera - in each format. But, it will be a lot more expensive (custom bellows and rear frame for each format) and more weight in bulk if you plan to carry more than one format at a time.

    To be continued...

  4. #4

    Re: Arca/Sinar/etc. Converson Camera for Kerry, John, and others...

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    4) How much labor is involved in this kind of project?
    Depends on how much you do yourself, how much you cobble together from existing parts, and how much you pay someone else to do. My 4x10 Swiss Lotus didn't take that much work as I lucked out and got a good deal on the 4x10 Lotus conversion kit and adapted it to my ARCA-SWISS. My 7x17 Franken-ARCA was a bit more work as I designed everything myself and built more of it in my garage. I did farm out the bellows and back (the parts that require skills I lack) to Camera Bellows and Richard Ritter. They built them to my specs and it all came together quite nicely. Or, if you've got better wood working sills than I have, you could do it ALL yourself. Obviously, this would be the most labor intensive, but also the least expensive approach (assuming you already have access to a well equipped shop).

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    5) Last thing, "excluding" the labor part, if I am to find the pieces as "scraps", meaning, finding all the parts in various auctions, local sales, etc. what is an approximate pricepoint I can be looking at for the total sum of these parts...lets just keep things to the camera parts and say, one 8X10 back.
    Anywhere from a couple hundred to a couple thousand. It really depends on your base camera (ARCA-SWISS F-Line, older model ARCA-SWISS, Sinar P, Sinar F or Sinar Alpina)

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    Ever since seeing the Arca-Lotus design, and obviously, with my love and sadness to have seen that Toho 8X10 go for so cheap during a time when I was confused about direction and what to do, I'm really feeling that this is the "ideal" path for me due to A) Weight, B) Movements, C) If Kerry and the very nice John has done it, why shouldn't I be doing it??? ...of course D) I just think that Arca-Lotus and the Cam featured w/the 110XL are just delicious looking...look modern, clean, high-tech, and also so simplistic. I'm especially keen on the Arca Swiss w/110XL featured on the one link regarding pre-production cams. It's just a wonderfully tasteful looking device, at least for me who cares less about aesthetics, though it's always a nice bonus .
    I think your next step should be to define just exactly what your requirements, priorities and budget are. As I suggested above, determine what lenses do you plan to use (in all formats) first. That will tell you your minimum lensboard size requirements and min/max extension. You can then start to zero in on a base camera that meets you needs - and your budget.

    Kerry

  5. #5

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    Thumbs up Re: Arca/Sinar/etc. Converson Camera for Kerry, John, and others...

    Hi Kerry,

    For lenses I have only a couple in mind, actually. The Nikkor 120/8, a Fujinon 240/9 or maybe Schneider/Rodenstock 240mm depending on size (Copal 3 may be too large), and "possibly" a Nikkor 300mm M. Now I could even go with the Nikkor 120/8, a 210mm Nikkor W old type that can cover 8X10 ok, and then the Fujinon or Nikkor 300mm..I shoot all "wide" stuff and the point of having multiple backs is to shoot wide on the larger stuff, and normal/longer on the 4X5 (i.e. can use the 120mm on 8x10 and then put a 300mm on the 4X5 for portraiture). I won't be using more than three lenses maximum and if Copal 3 is out of the picture for the lighter cams, I would not use anything but the lighter Copal 1 type lenses and even have to skip the Nikkor 300mm since it's slotted in a Copal 3.

    So Nikkor 120, and Fujinon 240 or something similar in length and with Copal 1.

    Given this, what would you recommend for the lightest possible cameras in a project of this type? I have an 8X10 back right now that could be made into 7X11, though I'm still not certain about 7X11, though it does sound appealing since my other two formats, a most primary format, being the whole plate and then 4X5.

    Thanks Kerry!!!

  6. #6

    Re: Arca/Sinar/etc. Converson Camera for Kerry, John, and others...

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    Hi Kerry,

    For lenses I have only a couple in mind, actually. The Nikkor 120/8, a Fujinon 240/9 or maybe Schneider/Rodenstock 240mm depending on size (Copal 3 may be too large), and "possibly" a Nikkor 300mm M. Now I could even go with the Nikkor 120/8, a 210mm Nikkor W old type that can cover 8X10 ok, and then the Fujinon or Nikkor 300mm..I shoot all "wide" stuff and the point of having multiple backs is to shoot wide on the larger stuff, and normal/longer on the 4X5 (i.e. can use the 120mm on 8x10 and then put a 300mm on the 4X5 for portraiture). I won't be using more than three lenses maximum and if Copal 3 is out of the picture for the lighter cams, I would not use anything but the lighter Copal 1 type lenses and even have to skip the Nikkor 300mm since it's slotted in a Copal 3.

    So Nikkor 120, and Fujinon 240 or something similar in length and with Copal 1.
    The ARCA-SWISS 110mm front standard could accommodate all the lenses you mentioned, even the 240mm f5.6 lenses in Copal No. 3 shutters. The maximum rear element diameter the 110mm ARCA front standard can swallow is 90mm. So, some of the big 360mm plasmats and the 150mm f8 Nikkor SW are out, but many other lenses in Copal No. 3 shutters (like the 450mm Nikkor M, 600mm Fujinon C, etc.) are OK. In fact, most of my 7x17 lenses are mounted on 110mm ARCA-SWISS boards. I use a 171/110 adapter to use these lenses in their smaller boards on the 171mm front standard of my 7x17 Franken-ARCA.

    I mention this because this is ARCA's smallest, lightest front standard. However, to center the lens on 8x10 (or 7x11), and still have the ability to get some front rise, you'll need a spacer to go between the front function carrier and the 110mm format frame (remember, this format frame was designed for their 6x9cm camera, so pushing it to 8x10 is a bit of a stretch).

    Or, you could go with a 141mm front format frame and get a 141/110 adapter to still use the smaller boards.

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    Given this, what would you recommend for the lightest possible cameras in a project of this type? I have an 8X10 back right now that could be made into 7X11, though I'm still not certain about 7X11, though it does sound appealing since my other two formats, a most primary format, being the whole plate and then 4X5.

    Thanks Kerry!!!
    Other than a Toho or Gowland, I'd go with an ARCA-SWISS F-Line with either the 110mm or 141mm front format frame and a 30cm extension bracket with a pair of 15cm rail sections (this is the rail configuration I use on my 4x5/4x10 configurations and it let me focus a 450mm Fujinon C at infinity).

    Kerry

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