Ordering Layers

[Kirk Gittings]

I sometimes get into problems with the order of layers. I usually have a mix of adjustment and regular layers including at least: spotting, channel mixer, curves, levels, gradient. What is the logic and correct ordering of these layers and layers in general?

[Daniel_Buck]

I don't think there is any "correct" way to do it, you'll just get different results. At least from what I have seen (been using Photoshop for about 7 years now)

One thing that you must keep in mind, is that photoshop is not floating point compatible (maybe CS3 is. I'm not sure but I doubt it, since it still has different bit depth "modes") So if you push pixels beyond the 255 value you can't bring the highlights back higher up on the stack. So in light of that, setting your white and black point might be best left to the very top of the stack (that's where my final white/black point done) after your curves and other adjustments are done. In general, I usually leave adjustments that treak the highlights till the top of the stack, for just that reason, so I know they don't accidentally clipped somehwere along the line. Programs that are floating point compatable (like Nuke, for instance) it's less critical, because if you push a highlight beyond 255 (or beyond 1, on the 0-1 scale) you can always bring them back unless you do a mathematical clip and force the pixels to clip (not just pushing them higher than 255 or 1, but actually clipping them).

As far as curves and most other adjustment layers (if you have multiple curves) the curves will interact differently with the image depending on how you layer them. (as mid-tones get pushed around, a curve that affects the mid-tones higher up in the stack will not be affecting different pixels) Sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's dramatic depending on how strong your curves are.

Personally, (for color photographs) I usually do the bulk of the contrast work first, and then work on the colors on top of the contrast layers. That's just my habit.

Hope that helps :-)

[PViapiano]

My personal order from bottom to top is usually Background, Spotting, Sharpening, Levels, Channel Mixer (if needed), Color Correction Curves, Contrast Curves, Hue/Sat, Soft Light Burn/Dodge Layer.

Works for me...and I've tried re-ordering to see different effects, but this is the one I've stayed with.

[Kirk Gittings]

Thanks, I should have said this is a b&w workflow that I am talking about.

[PViapiano]

Kirk...same thing. I don't include the layers I don't need...

[JW Dewdney]

I just do it the easy way and flatten after every single step...!

[jetcode]

I just do it the easy way and flatten after every single step...!

ouch! so much for balancing the effects of each layer in the processing stack!

[jetcode]

Kirk...same thing. I don't include the layers I don't need...

Curious if you archive the PSD (layered stack) version of each image you process.

[Henry Ambrose]

I accomplish what I want with a layer or layers then flatten as soon as possible. I never use layers for spotting - spotting belongs on the background. If its a typical sorta soft flatbed scan I also do a gentle global sharpen on the background. Things that are for sure a part of basic correction back to what I imagine is "on the film" or "basic reality" belong on the background or flattened to the background after being made. Then I save the file.

I really like having a compact file. Even on a powerful computer there's a big speed and working difference in a single layer 200MB file and the same image with 5-7 layers and over 1GB size. Also a clarity of purpose shows up when there are few layers. There is no question about what am I really doing and how does it effect the 4th layer down the stack.

And just because we can have layers doesn't mean we have to or need to every time. Kinda like camera movements - lots of time shooting straight on is the best solution. That the camera is tied in knots does not mean the picture will be better. Same for layers.

[bob carnie]

Kirk
I do not have an answer, but I am testing various issues with capture to Black and White on our Lambda and would be willing to share my results but this will take the winter to complete them all.
One test was to do a stacking test just as you are questioning, another to compare the various ways of dodging and burning. using different tools with CS3.
Resetting aim points for 21 step grey scale tests is also a very important area for me which we are playing around with.
I would be interested to follow this thread as well as hear your viewpoint after other folks from this forum jump in.
One thing I would suggest in any testing is to use the highest gloss material that you can use. I have found that using the Harmon Fibre Base on our Lambda, artifacts are more clearly evident than when using a rag paper on our Epsons.
Also pushing the test size up to 40 inch test strips are very helpful.
So a quick test IMO would be for you to take any image stack the layers the way you normally would , flatten and name normal. go back to the psd file change the order save and rename, and when you have finished all the different changes/renamed them and saved , print test strips at high magnification . In my shop we leave sharpening for the lambda and do not do it in PS but I am not sure of your work flow, but I would consider this aspect.
You should either see absolutely no difference or you see some difference to make your decision. I do not know what you will see but I think its a good test to try on an existing image you already have finished and like.