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Thread: Professional flatbed scanners?

  1. #161
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    So 16X20 is "exactly" alike the better scanners? This would correlate to Sandy's point of 4X enlarging maximum. Are there "any" differences at 4X enlargement, 3X, 2X???

    If I have an 8X10 sheet being scanned, can I use the 4X theory and get a 36X40 print that looks as good as one that was scanned on these high end scanners?
    I thought I was pretty clear. But one more time put a little differently. I have owned now 11 or 13? I can't remember prosumer scanners and scanned hundreds of 4x5 and 6x9 films for my business and art work using them dry and wet, with adjustable height holders, on the glass, you name it. I also have access to and use regularly the latest Imacons. I cannot get a scan from a 4x5 to print a 16x20 on any of the prosumer flatbeds that meet my expectations of resolution and low noise. I can get a decent 16x20 from a 4x5 from the newer Imacons, but they are not quite as good as the scans I get from professional flatbeds or drum scans. I put too much effort into a file for fine art prints to waste my time anymore on anything but a great scan. Therefore after years of testing the prosumer flatbeds (I also teach scanning at a University BTW), I have gone back to paying for professional scans for my FA prints until I can afford a decent professional flatbed. The difference is substantial enough for me to pay for the scans. I wish this were not so. Believe me. I will continue to use my Epson 750 for proofing, magazine assignments and small prints, but not when I need a file that will make a 16x20 from a 4x5 worthy of selling to collectors.

    I have never scanned 8x10 and I no longer shoot it. 8x10 has its own idiosyncrasies with the prosumer flabeds like film plane height that must be considered to achieve maximum sharpness.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  2. #162
    jetcode
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Kirk,

    I want to thank you for posting your professional experience with scanners. I find the information very useful.

    I would like to suggest that a professional in your position consider finding the scanner you want and purchase it either by credit card or small business loan. I put mine on a credit card and write it off as a business expense. The scanner I selected costs $200 a month which is the equivalent of 2 scans or less. You could train a student as a scan operator and offer scans to the local population to offset the expense. It would seem to me that a person with your credentials should have little problem securing a small business loan. Just a thought.

    Joe

  3. #163

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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    [QUOTE=audioexcels;285843]
    I didn't cick on the list.......
    Why not? It shows the same 4x5 chrome scanned on about 25 different scanners tested head to head, it's very informative.


    More on Medium format-I have also seen a person do a head to head test with the Nikon 9000 and an Imacon and the Nikon 9000 flattened the Imacon. I know a person that just started shooting with a Rollei 6002? and says he has never seen the level of detail/resolution/etc. fromm the 6cm X 6cm piece of film. His reference and camera he has used for a long time with "very expensive" lenses=the Canon 5D. Yes, he says it outresolves he 5D "handily", and this is from both scans (off an Epson V700) and in print.
    I don't trust most people's ideas of head to head tests because it seems that many people don't really know how to test anything and often take shortcuts that invalidate the test. This is why I test everything myself. I bought both the Nikon 9000 AND the Imacon and had them sit side by side and scan the same negs. No comparison, I would have preferred to spend the less than $2k for the Nikon but the differences were worth my spending the $10k on the Imacon, so the Nikon was returned.


    Some around here and I'm sure many others have tossed the LF equipment in the garbage since they see no differences in the 5D up to 20X24.
    I doubt that people who subscribe to the Large Format Forum have tossed their LF gear and shoot with a DSLR because they see no difference.


    Is it that the flatbeds can resolve "less" information and therefore are "better" for scanning 35mm and medium format film? I have always heard it is the opposite, and that the larger the film, the better the results from an Epson flatbed.
    I just don't understand what you're saying here. A professional flatbed resolves higher than anything short of a PMT drum scanner. And yes with ANY scanner the bigger the neg the better the scan. that's just simple common sense. If you only have to enlarge something 2x, it will more than likely look better than something that requires 10x for the same output size. I'm talking sharpness and resolution here and not color or density range as those are not affected as obviously by enlargement.

    On the off-off-topic of things. Why don't you have a look around the web for the Linkwitz Orion speakers and find a review on them. You will see "groups" that have been formed to discuss these speakers that reviewers and members of the group consider to be "as good as sound gets".
    I stopped chasing the perfect sound a decade ago and i've heard my share of arguments from people who claim that their modest systems compete with the best. If they are happy with their stereo systems then I'm happy for them. I'm more than satisfied with my Goldmund, Krell, CAT, ML system.

    As for cars, I'm not 17 anymore and need to have the fastest wheels on the road to buck up my self esteem. I just want a good 4x4 that can haul all my gear, won't be too painful to gas up and won't leave me stranded in a desert somewhere.

  4. #164
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian K View Post



    I don't trust most people's ideas of head to head tests because it seems that many people don't really know how to test anything and often take shortcuts that invalidate the test. This is why I test everything myself. I bought both the Nikon 9000 AND the Imacon and had them sit side by side and scan the same negs. No comparison, I would have preferred to spend the less than $2k for the Nikon but the differences were worth my spending the $10k on the Imacon, so the Nikon was returned.
    I even seen a side by side test that compared the Nikon 9000 to the Epson 750 over at Pnet that showed the Epson beating the Nikon. Hmmmm?
    Greg Lockrey

    Wealth is a state of mind.
    Money is just a tool.
    Happiness is pedaling +25mph on a smooth road.



  5. #165
    Ted Harris's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    There is not a lot I can to this thread other than to say that you are kidding yourself if you believe the prosumer scanners (including the superb Nikon 9000) will preform as well as the high end flatbeds or drum scanners. Most labs that scan have at least one of the lower end scanners around. Why not send a transparency or negative to one of them and have them do two scans for you, one on the high end and one on the low and then make up your mind?

    I have three scanners, a Microtek 1800f, a Creo Cezanne and a Kodak Creo IQSmart 3. The 1800f has not done a single scan (except for workshop/learning purposes) in over a year. No reason to fire it up. It may be the best or one of the best of the prosumers but given that it takes as much time to scan with it and the results don't even come close, why bother? In the last article on scanners I wrote for View Camera I went into great detail on the differences in the high end scanners v. the prosumers. I also discussed them in a number of threads here. Sandy has mentioned some of these dfferences and Kirk, Joe and Brian others. As a note I have now rescanned almost all of the negatives and transparencies that were once scanned on either the UMax Powerlook III or the Microtek 1800f. A lot of my film, going back 8 years (the time when I gave up traditional color printing), was originally scanned on high end flatbeds or drums.

    You might also consider calling around to local printing operations and seeing if any run a high end scanner (many do). Ask them if you can run a test, see some results, etc. I spent two days working with the prepress guys at Dartmouth Printing woring with them and their Cezanne before I bought mine.

    BTW, the 1800f is going to be for sale soon so if you really want to go that way send me an email.

    An offer, if you aren't in a hurry send me a tranny or a negative (one only please) and I will scan it for you on either the Cezanne or the IQSmart. I'll do as high a resolution scan as your computer system can handle, which is the way I work with my scanning clients. A small rant, one of the problems with the scans you get done by most labs is that they scan to size unless you tell them otherwise and they charge you much bigger bucks for bigger files. You won't really know what thee machines are capable of producing unless you get a high resolution scan but that gets to be a very big file. Scanning is only a part of my work and my philosophy is to give you the highest resolution scan you can handle (if you want an 8x10 tranny scanned at 5000 spi please send a portable hard drive to hold the file though ); I charge for my time, I don't change that if the machine has to run 30 minutes instead of 10 or 15. If you are in a hurry I am still happy to do it but it won't be free.

  6. #166
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    I would be more interested in finding dealers of these that are refurbished. I looked at the Bob Weber's site, could not find the Gensis on line. BW had some 1995 scanners but I don't know if they are the ones you folks have been discussing here. If they are the same, they were at $4k which sounds pretty reasonable to me to get into this level of scanner.
    Greg Lockrey

    Wealth is a state of mind.
    Money is just a tool.
    Happiness is pedaling +25mph on a smooth road.



  7. #167

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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Lockrey View Post
    I would be more interested in finding dealers of these that are refurbished. I looked at the Bob Weber's site, could not find the Gensis on line. BW had some 1995 scanners but I don't know if they are the ones you folks have been discussing here. If they are the same, they were at $4k which sounds pretty reasonable to me to get into this level of scanner.
    If you are interested here is the link to the Genesis site.

    http://www.genesis-equipment.com/home.cfm

    Buying a refurbished scanner from a place like Genesis or Bob Weber, with guarantee that it works on arrival, is a very good option.

    Second best would be local pick-up from a dealer, or from someone else local that will allow you to check the scanner out before carting it off.

    Worst risk is buying something on ebay that is advertised as "powers up but we don't know how to check it so sold AS IS. You will pay a lot for shipping such an items and if it does not work on arrival you may have to pay again to ship it off for repair. I took the third route and wound up with a nice scanner, but as Ted Harris notes, I was lucky.

    But you pays your money and takes your chances.

    Sandy King

  8. #168
    jetcode
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Ted's scanner list should have read

    ... three scanners, a Microtek 1800f, a Screen Cezanne and a Kodak Creo IQSmart 3.

    Ted, you gave me a great idea to solve my media exchange problem between the Apple for scanning and my PC for editing; portable hard disk media. I've been using a DVD for this operation. I still haven't been able to figure out if I can network on my Apple to my toaster (a pair of 300gig drives in a NetGear box that looks like a toaster) which is connected to a wireless DSL router and configured by PC software on each computer. I am going to hire you for consulting in the near future for information on ColorGenius software when I've had some more time to digest it all.

    Greg,
    Here's the Genesis link. In fact here are links for Cezanne brokers.

    http://www.genesis-equipment.com/home.cfm
    http://www.bob-weber.com/
    http://www.graphicsequipmentmart.com...=details&id=36
    http://www.printerads.com/

    there are more links too - google

    Genesis scanner inventory appears to be slim at the moment. They may still have a Cezanne in stock shipping from Arizona. A phone call or email is best.

    a PDF brochure
    http://www.fujifilm.com.tw/print/inp..._0308_R0-0.pdf

  9. #169
    jetcode
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Lockrey View Post
    BW had some 1995 scanners but I don't know if they are the ones you folks have been discussing here. If they are the same, they were at $4k which sounds pretty reasonable to me to get into this level of scanner.
    Note that scanner is missing the 35mm film tray and possibly the flat film tray. Make sure you understand exactly what version of software is provided and what OS it runs on.

  10. #170

    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by jetcode View Post

    ... Ted, you gave me a great idea to solve my media exchange problem between the Apple for scanning and my PC for editing ...
    'Dave', by Thursby...

    http://www.thursby.com/

    Works like a charm. Acts like a PC on a PC network, and will transfer the file over a wireless network to the PC. I send my scans directly from the drum scanner to the PC. No intermediary step.


    ---Michael

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