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Thread: Professional flatbed scanners?

  1. #141

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    Thumbs up Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian K View Post
    If both systems were properly set up and in a typical room
    then I rather doubt it.....
    Well...I didn't talk retail...I suppose I can put a price more like 8K for the system. 5K for the speakers...rest for equipment including my PC audio system that has the most elaborate room correction/digital crossovers I know of on the market, period. DEQX/TACT/MULTEQ (Auddysey) are all exellent "standalone" boxes, but are not progressive like the people doing the intensified/obsessed really, study of the best possible software for this very critical part of a system

    But here it boils down to taste rather than which is best as my dipole based speakers cannot produce the sound of horns, nor can they produce the sound of a Maggie Ribbon or an ML Electrosplat. But as a best of all worlds kind of speaker, I have absolutely no problem putting my system up against "anything"...period...

    Then again, I've also been to many shows, have listened on hours to many different very elaborate systems in home and in shops...I also have friends that listen objectively regardless of the system. And we can spot things others cannot, we can also disagree at first, but then come to learn that our disagreements become a conclusive agreement (i.e. we put two and two together to form one). The kind of people that I am referring to have 20K speaker testing devices, know every single bit of the latest technology on every driver produced, and have every objective fact that can relate to a speaker, along with the subjective proof which is sometimes surprising in the sense that it should not be sounding as good or bad as it shows on the science side of things. Hearing bad transformers in an amplifier with music blasting...know of anyone that can hear that? No one at the show seemed to notice but my friend that told the rep the amp needed to have the tranny fixed and the reps response was, "but it sure sounds good hey?"...

    I think one needs 5 different properly treated rooms, all with the unique sound that that particular speaker "type" has, combined with the optimum equipment for that specific speaker, and then full blown room correction and perfect linear response....well...linear enough that one has to nitpick the life out of it to find flaws...and in the end, most importantly isn't how "exacting" the sound is from each of these speaker's limitations (every speaker has limitations or we'd have one perfect speaker and not 5-10...gotta go through a "big" list of the many different types), but how it touches the soul.

    In the end, when you have something that sounds "so good", you simply let off of the objective elements involved and let the music treat you to tears that come out unconsciously. I had never had this experience with anything but the system I have now. Usually an emotional response can occur due to sensations that lead up to tears. But this one time, a tear just came flat out of my eye...totally unexplainable and random.

    Just to let you know...I in no way feel my system is perfect, is the best in the world, etc. etc...I have no intention to boast about my system nor compete with it. At the same time, I know it cannot be embarrassed by anything, but rather, just be subjectively the "equivalent" of anything out there...and for me, that's good enough since my redundancy never stops, every system, every speaker, everything in life has compromises, and that's the beauty of life...learning to live with the compromises while striving to perfect them...though we never can and never will since something else will always surpass what we thought was pefect. Hence, why nature is so perfect=she's balanced and she's unpredictable...just ask the earthquake people....

    Now if only I can see these beautiful scans alongside the budget scans in prints on the walls and in my hands to see just what is possible...that would be a real treat not just for myself, but I'm sure for any photographer in general.

  2. #142
    Kirk Gittings's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    My tests have shown that you can get approximately a 4x enlargement out of the Epson scanners before differences begin to show in a print between them and a drum scanner. I haven't formally tested the V700/750, so that may be a little higher for them, but not much.
    Ditto. I've owned and tested everyone of the top of the top of the line prosumer Epsons, Microteks and Canons as they have come out, except the Microtek 800i (?) including the 1800F. I have tested them wet and dry and with custom holders (Like the Better Scaning holder which is superb). Each generation has been slightly better than the last, for instance, the Epson 750 Pro is a good bump from the 3200 but only slightly better than the 4990. IMO I could never get a file for a 16x20 b&w print that resolved even as good as a Imacon scan and not even close to a good pro flatbed or dru scan. Above 16x20, IMO scans from the prosmer flatbeds were unusable. I am talking resolution, noise and DMax. That 16x20 boundary may not be apparent to my clients, but is obvious to me.
    Thanks,
    Kirk

    at age 73:
    "The woods are lovely, dark and deep,
    But I have promises to keep,
    And miles to go before I sleep,
    And miles to go before I sleep"

  3. #143

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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    Now if only I can see these beautiful scans alongside the budget scans in prints on the walls and in my hands to see just what is possible...that would be a real treat not just for myself, but I'm sure for any photographer in general.
    I posted a link that gives excellent head to head comparisons of scanners, maybe you should check it out.

    As for the very off topic stereo system discussion, it's been about 10 years since I was an active audiophile, and I've heard very good $5 and 10K systems, but head to head with the higher end systems you will hear a huge difference. And it has to be head to head, that is both systems in the same room playing the same material one after the other. It seems that people don't necessarily have a very good memory for sonic differences. All one can usually carry from one listening experience to another done on a different day in a different environment, is to listen to a recording that you know extraordinarily well and try to remember certain subtle details that you are accustomed to hearing and see if they are missing in the system being tested, or if you hear new details that might have been missing from your reference system.

    And the plain truth is that people have varying degrees of hearing acuity and many people have hearing loss in certain frequencies. Someone with hearing loss in the upper frequencies might think that a shrill screechy sounding system has details in the highs, whereas someone with good hearing might find the same system painful to listen to.

  4. #144

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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by audioexcels View Post
    So what's the point in anyone buying a low end flatbed when the difference is world's apart? I don't quite understand the logic here of "not" buying a Nikon 9000 that is supposed to rival drum scans and shoot medium format film VS. shooting sheet film and having it processed through something that is world's apart from these expensive flatbeds you are talking about?

    In other words, one can pickup the 9000 w/glass carrier on a good day for $1200USD. Add in a nice 6X7 kit for $1000.

    OR

    One can shoot sheet film and put it through an Epson and achieve results world's apart from what the Nikon 9000 equivalent can do in the LF world. Since LF is about enlarging, and given what is said about the digitization of LF sheet film having "zero" options aside from spending 3K on a lucky day, and more like 5-6K on an average day...what is the point in doing anything but b/w contact prints w/careful study and learning about what all can be done with a contact print, and shooting everything else with an MF camera and using the Nikon 9000 for the digital process/enlargement potential???

    After reading through this thread, it's as if the Epson/Microtek/etc. brew of scanners is the Yugo and these higher end scanners are the Bugattie (sp).

    I am not kicking the Epson scanners. I have a 4990 on my desk and use it almost every day. And for prints up to about 15X21" from 5X7" negatives it gives very good results IMO. In fact, almost every print I am currently showing was made from a scan with either a 4870 or 4990. However, for anything beyond 4X the results from the Epson 4990 are generally not acceptable for me with most subjects.

    I don't fully understand your question about our logic in choosing certain systems. To be frank, there is probably a lot more chance and personal interest than logic in some of my own choices.

    Sandy

  5. #145

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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Lockrey View Post
    I'm going ask a seemingly stupid question so bare with me. What is it about these "high end" scanners are you buying? Better lens, ok. Dpi....I don't see it. Better color....how? Durability...for sure..

    You are buying more effective resolution, or real sharpness. If a drum scanner is said to have optical resolution of 5000 ppi then the real, or effective resolution, is going to be very close to 100% of the optical potential. A high end flatbed such as the EverSmart Supreme with optical resolution of 5600 will give effective resolution of at least 90% of the optical potential. By contrast, my Epson 4990, with optical resolution of 4800 ppi, gives a maximum of about 1800 - 2000 ppi in effective resolution, and the last generation V700 and V750 don't do much better.

    So in terms of effective resolution, as opposed to the useless "advertised" dpi, drum scanners and high end flatbeds deliver about 2.5 times as many useful pixels.

    You are also buying other things, greater dynamic range, more reliability, more powerful software for example, but sharpness is at the top of the list for me.

    Sandy King

  6. #146
    Ted Harris's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Greag, to add to Sandy's you are also buying much much more dynamic range. Shadow details that the Prosumer scanners cannot even begin to render are clearly visable in scans from the high end flatbeds and drums. All of the high end flatbed and drum scanners have a real Dmax in the range of 3.9 to 4.2, all of which exceed the density range of any film to be scanned thus are capable of capturing all the detail. This is vastly better than the performance of the Prosumers whose Dmax, in the best case barely reaches 2.5 ... remember it is a log scale so the higher performance number are much better.

  7. #147
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Thank you for all your answers, so in a nutshell, I'm not to believe the specs on any prosumer scanner? The stated Dmax for a Epson 750 is 4.0 and 3.8 on the 10000xl. Unless film has changed in the past ten years, what is the Dmax there? The fact that the high end scanners can reach 5600 dpi is awsome, but what does that do for me where all I need is 360-720 for a print scan at 1:1 which already more than what the reknowned BGSU lab uses for their scans at only 270 dpi use on their 5000 dpi machine? (Where did they get that number?) And do I really need more than 1200 dpi for a 4x5 if I can get 2000 in reality from a machine that claims 4800. No, I think I'll just be cost effective and when my Epi's ware out, buy the next improved generation for less money than I paid for these. Only about 2% of you can tell the difference anyway.
    Greg Lockrey

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  8. #148

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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Lockrey View Post
    .....The fact that the high end scanners can reach 5600 dpi is awsome, but what does that do for me where all I need is 360-720 for a print scan at 1:1 .....
    Well clearly you do not need a professional flatbed scanner. Although as Ted mentions it's just not about sharpness and resolution but about density range and tonal detail as well. These are professional level tools and the professional never knows just what requirements may come up so often they buy a tool that goes beyond their typical usage.

  9. #149
    Greg Lockrey's Avatar
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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brian K View Post
    Well clearly you do not need a professional flatbed scanner. Although as Ted mentions it's just not about sharpness and resolution but about density range and tonal detail as well. These are professional level tools and the professional never knows just what requirements may come up so often they buy a tool that goes beyond their typical usage.
    I agree with you in principle to be sure. But for what I primarily do, copy art work for artists, these prosumer scanners meet the requirements. Black paint is just so black and white is as white as the paper. If I get a demand for scanning 8mm film to make prints, 5600dpi will be what I need.

    My thinking is that many businesses end up pricing themselves out of the market because they buy machines that are way too expensive to meet their need. Sure there is a better scanner. Yes, BGSU has the best facility in these parts, but then the taxpayer subsidizes them. And from my limited knowledge of scanning my scans compete with theirs no question. Do they have a better capability, sure, but for who? I'm not seeeing anything coming out of there that has 5000 dpi attached to it. I'm only seeing 270 dpi rgb/8 . I mean thats low level scanning. Looking at histograms they miss the BP and WP targets and they charge $100 for 17x25" page. Extra if they have to stitch. I still have to play with the colors to make a match. Yes, I know my printers are different, but not that different. I just think people get caught up in the hype. My $.02. I'm done.
    Greg Lockrey

    Wealth is a state of mind.
    Money is just a tool.
    Happiness is pedaling +25mph on a smooth road.



  10. #150

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    Re: Professional flatbed scanners?

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Lockrey View Post
    I agree with you in principle to be sure. But for what I primarily do, copy art work for artists, these prosumer scanners meet the requirements. Black paint is just so black and white is as white as the paper. If I get a demand for scanning 8mm film to make prints, 5600dpi will be what I need.
    Greg don't get caught up in dpi, actually ppi, the difference in density and tonal range is significant and if the artist's whose work you scan do contunuous tone images with a great deal of subtlety, some of those subtle tones will be lost. That was the case with scans of my own prints on the Agfa Duoscan 2500 and the Microtek 9800xl.

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